The Jordan Peterson thread

Iacobus

Robin
Orthodox
Interesting. What does this interview say about Father Josiah Trenham?
The Interview was uploaded in early 2019.
(I haven't listened to the podcast yet)


The Significance of the Work of Dr. Jordan Peterson
An interview with Father Josiah Trenham

Patristic Nectar Publications is pleased to present the following interview given by Father Josiah to local media on the subject of the rising influence of Dr. Jordan Peterson. This interview was given following a recent lecture given by Dr. Peterson in Riverside, California at which Fr. Josiah made Dr. Peterson's acquaintance.


patristicnectar.org/video

It says nothing? JBP undeniably did a lot of good in his day and there's nuance to these issues. Are we going to dig up dirt on anyone who ever praised JBP and bring their credibility into question? I'll be first in line.
 

Uzisuicide

Kingfisher
Protestant
Gold Member
Fr. Josiah was wrong when it comes to Jordan Peterson, and I even wrote him to tell him as much. Sometimes Fr. Josiah gets a bit carried away with the Culture War, but that is understandable given his parish is in California.

Ultimately, I don't think that Fr. Josiah is a bad priest, and many on this forum have received value from his sermons. We all make mistakes, even many saints have fallen into error -- but we don't condemn them.

Glad you were able to set him straight.
 

Viktor Zeegelaar

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
I said I wasn't going to come back in here until Jordan was on the path of Christ, but given his recent diversion exceptions can be made.

@Uzisuicide - I'm posting my penultimate post in here, in part to show I am not wobbling down some of the roads you are mentioned, like saying that everyone is controlled opposition.

Points:

1) This is a Christian forum, where the direction is Christ-first. As noted in the below post, Jordan featured in a video in which he outlines how human evolved to create religion over thousands of years. He doesn't believe in Christianity. He believes in junkifying it with his philosophising, making himself God.

2) Jordan used to be very good in his replies to critics, engaging with them gracefully even if they were not so. The 200 Years Together video is a good example. It was a tough line of question giving the society you live in, and he followed his rule - tell the truth, or at least don't lie. I consider myself to be very good at reading between the lines of what people say. In the times he was asked the JQ, you can see that he knows there's at least something there. He has long been aggressive to radical leftist idealouges, but he was always tactful and cordial to the JQ.

3) Owing to being asked about the JQ so many times, he has a section on his website in which he debunks Jewish over achievement as "they have high IQs"; which isn't the issue that's really raised, it's what the Ashkenazi use their high IQs for. In another interview, I think with Murray or Eric Weinstein, he again stated that Jewish over achievement can be explained by high IQs, but refused to state the same with white or the general population and blacks. Black underachievement is just a mystery, which can be filled with endless made-up narratives by the radical left. He knows this is not true, again falling back to the - at least don't lie - just say - I can't do it.

4) He gave a ridiculous lecture, on the edge of tears, in which he said words to the effect of the fate of the world depends on the Jews. He also engaged with two fawning interviews, ignoring obvious questions and allowing Nettin Yoohoo to present bogus history unopposed. Further, he created two videos in which he pontificated from his Daily Wire sponsored ivory tower how the Christian church and Muslims should clean up their room. This from a man whose room is festooned in communist propaganda. What Christian would do that give the activities of the Soviets. A room so dirty he nearly killed himself in a drug overdose.

5) His crusade against online anonymity, even though he knows full well what a leftist society we live in, and that many people will face extreme repercussion for presenting even centrist views. Jordan is currently on defence as the borg is trying to remove his psychiatrist licence. I will give it him that he was brave in his 2015-17 period. He walked the tight rope. There have been many shots against him, but he's ended up in the off-mainstream media, where you can financially survive. Almost no one has the ability to do this. As an example, some game developer in Canada or the US recently lost her job because she was reported to her employer for following Ian Miles Cheong and Libs of Tik Tok. Peterson also supported the anonymity of socialist SlateStarCodex (Scott Alexander) when the failing New York Slimes threatened him with doxxing. It's not anonymity he really care about. It's what is being said anonymity, maybe most specifically what Jews use their high IQs to do.

6) His policing of his comment like an angry grandma, calling people rats.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that Peterson is not better than the mainstream of government schools and the red media. People saw that he was poking around in the right areas of Western cultural, moral and spiritual decline. But he is a liberal, and ultimately all he wants to do is roll liberalism back to the point that it wasn't more leftist. Leftism is the only successor as liberalism (see my post below). And Peterson has zero answers as to how you could even roll leftism back to liberalism. He believes in individualism and has no way to enforce his ideas. Liberalism only worked while in monarchical or aristocratic settings. That was the setting in which it could thrive, but being liberals, they decided those system had to go. They are the direct ideological ancestors of leftism and haven't been able to realise that yet. That don't want to realise that.

What we are arguing is that Peterson has become a ridiculous cardboard cutout. His shilling for Israel is indistinguishable from the work of Brian Stelter or Chris Cumou. It's the sort of stuff CNN were doing when Obama was elected. He is obviously going to be criticised.

And as for Jews. You find their hand behind every facet that Peterson was digging around. Yet he wants to completely bury any mention of that. What would he say, for example, about this?

1592184629454.jpg



If it was 4 years ago it would be, "I can't do it." Now it's "You're an evil rat." Allegedly genocidal rage is one of his giant worries. But he won't acknowledge that Jews are capable of it, never mind the primary culprits and ones who you can't say anything about.

The better question is - why not criticise Peterson? He's not leading anyone anywhere back but a few steps at which point we fall straight back into the same position we are now.

As for Christians being nice. Seems there is a place for not being nice. I doubt we'd know what Christianity is if some of it's most important adherents weren't nice. As the age of weak men wanes, it's inevitable we will become more accustomed to it.

When people attack people or things I like, I don't flinch. It does not effect me. To see that Peterson's followers are acting like women because he's been criticised shows me we're doing well.
With regards to point 6, that's a common thing in alt right, populist, allegedly conservative movements. Typically they're conservative in the sense that they want to conserve the liberal and secular "freedoms". They often go back go the Enlightenment and Renaissance to substantiate their more romantic view about what the future should look like. We should remember though that most of these people come from an atheist background. If you come from that background, naturally you tend to look for answers in eras like the ancient Greeks and Romans, the history of philosophy, Renaissance, Enlightenment, because you're still in the delusion that our secular freedom truly is freedom. It takes a lot for someone raised secular in a through and through secular society to come to that point, speaking from personal experience. Like for example in the Netherlands we've got such a party with well intentions, being hated by the media, fighting in the trenches, addressing the great reset in parliament, leading protests, but the view will always be focused on saving this world and our so called rights and freedoms, for that's all they see coming from a country where Christianity literally is invisible, the Catholics have a bad name for their worldly errors and the protestants who are living somewhat traditional are seen as backwards.
 

Uzisuicide

Kingfisher
Protestant
Gold Member
With regards to point 6, that's a common thing in alt right, populist, allegedly conservative movements. Typically they're conservative in the sense that they want to conserve the liberal and secular "freedoms". They often go back go the Enlightenment and Renaissance to substantiate their more romantic view about what the future should look like. We should remember though that most of these people come from an atheist background. If you come from that background, naturally you tend to look for answers in eras like the ancient Greeks and Romans, the history of philosophy, Renaissance, Enlightenment, because you're still in the delusion that our secular freedom truly is freedom. It takes a lot for someone raised secular in a through and through secular society to come to that point, speaking from personal experience. Like for example in the Netherlands we've got such a party with well intentions, being hated by the media, fighting in the trenches, addressing the great reset in parliament, leading protests, but the view will always be focused on saving this world and our so called rights and freedoms, for that's all they see coming from a country where Christianity literally is invisible, the Catholics have a bad name for their worldly errors and the protestants who are living somewhat traditional are seen as backwards.

Typically not alot of people will agree on all of what is considered 'conservative'. Or they'll rank certain values as higher or lower on the conservative scale of importance with regards to where the west is at culturally.

But overall I think most people who consider themselves conservative will agree with each other 80% of the time.

Rather than character assassinate and kill each other over the 20, conservatives had better get together on the 80 while there's still time, and I believe there still is, to set the west on a more sane future heading. With common sense and morality.
 

Lawrence87

Kingfisher
Orthodox
Typically not alot of people will agree on all of what is considered 'conservative'. Or they'll rank certain values as higher or lower on the conservative scale of importance with regards to where the west is at culturally.

But overall I think most people who consider themselves conservative will agree with each other 80% of the time.

Rather than character assassinate and kill each other over the 20, conservatives had better get together on the 80 while there's still time, and I believe there still is, to set the west on a more sane future heading. With common sense and morality.

The problem with many conservatives is that they still think the "proper channels" are the avenues for change. In some sense I can understand because the conservative impulse is to conserve these institutions etc, but the thing is that the "proper channels" are corrupt and will never let conservatives actually change anything meaningfully.

It's a bit off topic but I think to change things conservatives need to let go of the mindset that things can be fixed from within
 

Ember

Hummingbird
Other Christian
Gold Member
Rather than character assassinate and kill each other over the 20, conservatives had better get together on the 80 while there's still time, and I believe there still is, to set the west on a more sane future heading. With common sense and morality.
Conservatism is a dead ideology because it failed to conserve anything. It only ever targeted the protection of the status quo, and as such, got results between stalemate and loss.

There is not still time to fix things. That ship sailed long ago. The degradation of the West has advanced so far now that the decline will continue until collapse in the not too distant future. It has built an inertia that is too great to reverse using peaceful means.
 

teodort

Sparrow
Orthodox
Jordan Peterson played an instrumental role for me in my early - political - stages of being initiated into the truth. I consider hem to be a stepping stone, not necessarily an end stage in the pursuit for truth. One can have some views that are on, and some that are off, but I get the impression that some here expect him to be as well informed and have the same perspective as a fr Spyridon, and that everything less than that falls short. That's just not a standard we can hold everyone in the truth sphere too. People are looking, people are searching, people are figuring it out. Give them some credit - unless they have outright bad intentions assume they have good intentions and are on the journey as well, just like us.
This. JP is a stepping stone, and God knows what He permits. All people must learn the Truth and return to the Church for their own good, so for some it might be JP. The problem is when they remain at "the Peterson stage".
 

paternos

Kingfisher
Catholic
Conservatism is a dead ideology because it failed to conserve anything. It only ever targeted the protection of the status quo, and as such, got results between stalemate and loss.

There is not still time to fix things. That ship sailed long ago. The degradation of the West has advanced so far now that the decline will continue until collapse in the not too distant future. It has built an inertia that is too great to reverse using peaceful means.
100% support this.

Conservatism doesn't agree on anything. Just like democrats. Just watch the last 100 years how positions have changed. They change from mass spending to mass cuts. From gay bad, gay good. That's because there is no core. No basis.

It's all just opportunism, politicians trying to get a seat, then keeping their seat, and then making a lot of money in a NGO, Tech or banks selling their network.

I know some people who went into politics and they are not very grounded people. As real grounded people will be thrown out. Politics is about voting according to party line.

Just look how often people don't vote along party line. Do it once, and you're out in the next period.
It's very strict, people can't think freely in politics, they cant speak freely, they can't vote freely.

It's all so Jewish, the use the word democracy, which meant going to the town square and voting when all the men of a certain age of good standing on collective policies, wars, roads.

Today they want to make use belief that voting once every 4 years, democrat or republican is the same.

This is no democracy, this is no power.

Conservatism is nothing. It's just a hole.

It's tapping into the sin of melancholy, desiring a past that most likely never even existed.
In the Christian tradition, melancholy was linked to one of the seven deadly sins, the sin of sloth, and could be used – in a somewhat metaphorical way – to explain the Fall of Man, the original sin

Conservatism is sin in my opinion. There is not a lot beyond dreaming of sitting in a chesterfield smoking a cigar drinking whiskey looking at the skinny woman who is only kind to the man and the kids. And just because of blue haired women this dream is distorted.

It's bullshit, it's lies, it's keeping us from God.
 

teodort

Sparrow
Orthodox
100% support this.

Conservatism doesn't agree on anything. Just like democrats. Just watch the last 100 years how positions have changed. They change from mass spending to mass cuts. From gay bad, gay good. That's because there is no core. No basis.

It's all just opportunism, politicians trying to get a seat, then keeping their seat, and then making a lot of money in a NGO, Tech or banks selling their network.

I know some people who went into politics and they are not very grounded people. As real grounded people will be thrown out. Politics is about voting according to party line.

Just look how often people don't vote along party line. Do it once, and you're out in the next period.
It's very strict, people can't think freely in politics, they cant speak freely, they can't vote freely.

It's all so Jewish, the use the word democracy, which meant going to the town square and voting when all the men of a certain age of good standing on collective policies, wars, roads.

Today they want to make use belief that voting once every 4 years, democrat or republican is the same.

This is no democracy, this is no power.

Conservatism is nothing. It's just a hole.

It's tapping into the sin of melancholy, desiring a past that most likely never even existed.


Conservatism is sin in my opinion. There is not a lot beyond dreaming of sitting in a chesterfield smoking a cigar drinking whiskey looking at the skinny woman who is only kind to the man and the kids. And just because of blue haired women this dream is distorted.

It's bullshit, it's lies, it's keeping us from God.
I agree on your points. Moreover, I would like to add that democracy is inherently fallen too.

From Wiktionary -> demo- (“people”) +‎ -cracy (“rule”).

So, let's see. How can the "cracy" of the (fallen) "people" do any good? The only correct "cracy" is of God and He gets to choose via the Church both the secular and spiritual leaders (two distinct powers and people, not in one). So, our polity might be called Church-o-Cracy or the true form of Theocracy if you will.
 

paternos

Kingfisher
Catholic
I agree on your points. Moreover, I would like to add that democracy is inherently fallen too.

From Wiktionary -> demo- (“people”) +‎ -cracy (“rule”).

So, let's see. How can the "cracy" of the (fallen) "people" do any good? The only correct "cracy" is of God and He gets to choose via the Church both the secular and spiritual leaders (two distinct powers and people, not in one). So, our polity might be called Church-o-Cracy or the true form of Theocracy if you will.
Totally agree.

If the people bow to the devil, the devil rules.

I also think you're right here
He gets to choose via the Church both the secular and spiritual leaders (two distinct powers and people, not in one.
The one organ, the Church is to bring the spirit and bring us to heaven. And everything which needs the spirit, health care, education, eldercare, service should be there.

And the other is the State, which takes care of the practical public facilities like roads, police, water, infrastructure & garbage disposal. It is facilatary.

This powergrab of the last institution is the problem. In my country the state owns many of the most beautiful church buildings as monuments as the church is too poor to pay for the taxes and maintenance.

Democracy today means having 1 huge mega-state which took over the spiritual institutions like schools and hospitals. Which is exactly the same as Bolsjevik "communism" in the USSR.

Exactly the same: Jewish democracy equals Jewish communism. It's word salad. Jewish communism has nothing to do with workers and communities as Marx intended. It's mega state elitist rule. As is Jewish democracy it has nothing to do with the people (demos like you say) It is mega state elitist rule. Democrats hate referenda. And in both systems, which are the exact same, Christ is invisible, mocked or actively persecuted.

Why I say conservatism is nothing, it's because it never challenges the power of the megastate. They eat fat bellies in this big mega state. They are the problem. They can't solve it. They fake some conflict and impress the masses: "I'm fighting for your interest." They are frauds.

A normal rule has a strong Church, a separate facilitating public function and businesses.

As clergy don't need to know how to build roads. State employees shouldn't talk about education or morality or good or bad, they should talk about how to effectively pick up the poo.

For this reason conservatism is a dead end street. Also the megastate will never be challenged from within the gluttonous state. It will be challenged from outside. From God and Church. From the people resisting the crazy taxes on any human activity.

I think the most rebellious activity we can do is following Christ and resisting to pay for the killing machines in Ukraine and the death pills giving to girls to kills their babies.

Politics is a circle jerk. And when you see Peterson sitting laughing with Nettinyoohoo and the other megastate players and christ killers it's not a pretty sight.

It shouldn't even be a topic of debate in my opinion, all this conservative blabla is just distraction. Oh trannies, oh pronouns. That won't change a bit. They want us to believe that that is a "risky" opinion. That's propaganda. Making us belief that you won't call a blue haired monster they/them is risky. It's idiocracy. Talking about it is idiotic. As if this is courageous.

Courageous is following Christ, stop watching jewish porn, learn skills like building, learning to discern, reading the bible as the main source of truth, build a family, stop funding the system as much as possible. (all the things I didn't dare to do for most of my life) And be a spiritual light for others in this transformation. Filling your fat conservative mouth in parliament (or having your hopes in these people) saying things on trannies won't change a thing.
 

Viktor Zeegelaar

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
I agree on your points. Moreover, I would like to add that democracy is inherently fallen too.

From Wiktionary -> demo- (“people”) +‎ -cracy (“rule”).

So, let's see. How can the "cracy" of the (fallen) "people" do any good? The only correct "cracy" is of God and He gets to choose via the Church both the secular and spiritual leaders (two distinct powers and people, not in one). So, our polity might be called Church-o-Cracy or the true form of Theocracy if you will.
Democracy has always been a scam, purported to the people so they think they have a voice in what's going on, while the same elite as always is behind the strings. If people choose their demise it's way easier for those who are ruling to lead them to that demise, than when they have to be forced to march to the slaughterhouse. Also, it gives people hope of change in the future, change that will never come of course.
 

paternos

Kingfisher
Catholic
Democracy has always been a scam, purported to the people so they think they have a voice in what's going on, while the same elite as always is behind the strings. If people choose their demise it's way easier for those who are ruling to lead them to that demise, than when they have to be forced to march to the slaughterhouse. Also, it gives people hope of change in the future, change that will never come of course.

When I badmouth the rulers, people tell me: "Then you should have voted differently"

This false belief: "you have a choice" is so engrained. "Your vote really matters". To be honest, does it?

And then these political actors are promising a lot: "We will bring equality" "A bright future for everyone"
They deliver hope to the masses in exchange for a vote and compliance to the system.

Somehow the act of voting is doing something to the soul. Every 4 years we're signing our allegiance to the system.

Thinking it over again, I think I'll stop voting all together. Let's stop wasting my time on this spectacle.
 

Viktor Zeegelaar

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
When I badmouth the rulers, people tell me: "Then you should have voted differently"

This false belief: "you have a choice" is so engrained. "Your vote really matters". To be honest, does it?

And then these political actors are promising a lot: "We will bring equality" "A bright future for everyone"
They deliver hope to the masses in exchange for a vote and compliance to the system.

Somehow the act of voting is doing something to the soul. Every 4 years we're signing our allegiance to the system.

Thinking it over again, I think I'll stop voting all together. Let's stop wasting my time on this spectacle.
I haven't voted the last elections. Probably never will again. It's legitimizing the system. Putting all my trust away from the world, into Christ, the only place that matters... I find that I don't even care anymore what happens really. I'm too jaded of all the degeneracy I guess, but the deeper you see the rot is, the less you care, for the ship has hit the iceberg long since and is sinking no matter what. Let's say we win politics and some populist right wing gov comes in and stops migration and brings back some sense of national identity, we still have the terrible food, the -isms all around, women's ''rights'', trannys and homosexuals everywhere, social media destroying attention spans and distracting everybody, porn, relentless media. The software is just too corrupted for the hardware to be restored on a societal level, we can only look towards ourselves and then try to help those around us who are open for it.

If the corona stuff wasn't the smoking gun that the system of government doesn't matter, what is? Whether it was North Korea, Italy with it's ''populist right'' gov, the US, hard leftist regimes, dictators, everyone shut it down. Cause it doesn't matter what the system is. If the fisher at the top wants to pull his net in, he will.
 

Bird

Ostrich
Catholic
It says nothing? JBP undeniably did a lot of good in his day and there's nuance to these issues. Are we going to dig up dirt on anyone who ever praised JBP and bring their credibility into question? I'll be first in line.

You are right, I just had article https://gorthodox.com/en/news-item/the-secret-subversion-of-american-orthodoxy (28 Christian Articles I Recommend) in my mind reminding me to always be vigilant, no matter what reputation a person may have today , because that can change the very next day due to certain circumstances.
 

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
"Conservatism" is the fake opposition needed to keep the false appearance of choice against degeneracy (communism/satanic/globalism, whatever you want to call it). And this isn't a new phenomenon, in Mein Kampf, Adolph Hitler writes about the same fake phenomenon in the 1920's.

The GOP, and all their approved lobbyist groups, exist only to ensure that no real opposition ever appears to stop the move to degeneracy. Jordan Peterson is one of the many system approved (gate keeper) "conservative" outlets. So, he now is pushing to remove internet anonymity and supporting porn, which are extremely harmful to any real pushback to the slide into the third world. Which is why Jordan Peterson, and Ben Shapiro, and TPUSA are allowed on college campuses, and speak in front if large audiences and are allowed on TV, which the real opposition to this satanic system would never be allowed to do any of these things. And when they tried in the past, they were harassed, beaten up, and then arrested for defending themselves.

There are times I step back and marvel at how well this system is put together to enrich only the elites and push the rest of us into an ever increasingly worse form of debt slavery. The greatest trick of all is the "conservative vote". They still have millions of the "silent majority" who are still believing they are one election away from righting the wrongs. Rather than spend their time saving money and building their own real opposition, they waste their time supporting this evil satanic system by thinking Mr. GOP just needs to get to DC to "fight the swamp". It is the greatest of distractions.

And the greatest kicker of all of it, is if this system does completely collapse and the elites move on to their next host and people there say "wait, didn't you come from _____ and they went from a first world country to a third world hellhole" they can play dumb and say "that isn't my fault, in fact, they voted for it". We "voted" to flood our nation with millions of people who hate us and destroyed our way of living. We "voted" for endless wars that killed millions of innocent people. We "voted" for women to forgo motherhood for endless passions and eventually turn into online porn stars. Well, in reality we "voted" for none of these things, but both parties support it, and it gives the elites a way to point the finger at someone else for their evils. Namely us.
 

paternos

Kingfisher
Catholic
"Conservatism" is the fake opposition needed to keep the false appearance of choice against degeneracy (communism/satanic/globalism, whatever you want to call it). And this isn't a new phenomenon, in Mein Kampf, Adolph Hitler writes about the same fake phenomenon in the 1920's.

The GOP, and all their approved lobbyist groups, exist only to ensure that no real opposition ever appears to stop the move to degeneracy. Jordan Peterson is one of the many system approved (gate keeper) "conservative" outlets. So, he now is pushing to remove internet anonymity and supporting porn, which are extremely harmful to any real pushback to the slide into the third world. Which is why Jordan Peterson, and Ben Shapiro, and TPUSA are allowed on college campuses, and speak in front if large audiences and are allowed on TV, which the real opposition to this satanic system would never be allowed to do any of these things. And when they tried in the past, they were harassed, beaten up, and then arrested for defending themselves.

There are times I step back and marvel at how well this system is put together to enrich only the elites and push the rest of us into an ever increasingly worse form of debt slavery. The greatest trick of all is the "conservative vote". They still have millions of the "silent majority" who are still believing they are one election away from righting the wrongs. Rather than spend their time saving money and building their own real opposition, they waste their time supporting this evil satanic system by thinking Mr. GOP just needs to get to DC to "fight the swamp". It is the greatest of distractions.

And the greatest kicker of all of it, is if this system does completely collapse and the elites move on to their next host and people there say "wait, didn't you come from _____ and they went from a first world country to a third world hellhole" they can play dumb and say "that isn't my fault, in fact, they voted for it". We "voted" to flood our nation with millions of people who hate us and destroyed our way of living. We "voted" for endless wars that killed millions of innocent people. We "voted" for women to forgo motherhood for endless passions and eventually turn into online porn stars. Well, in reality we "voted" for none of these things, but both parties support it, and it gives the elites a way to point the finger at someone else for their evils. Namely us.

Pure truth. You word this very well.

Especially what we can't discuss. Try getting to speak at universities or in media about God's will. Or investigating the JQ and the holocaust. Try to get a good priest on TV to talk about depression or marriage. The sin of killing your child in your womb and the hardship of carrying that sin.

There is just "progression" of evil. And the fake opposite conservative is less progression of evil as you say well.

In European politics it's similar. Former Christian parties have been reformed to social agenda parties who don't even dare to say the name of our Lord in parliament. As they understand speaking about Jesus would be systemic suicide. Maybe it's even shame. Them knowing they shouldn't use his name in vain.

They talk about vague notions or morality, taking care of eachother and being good neighbours.
 

Easy_C

Peacock
Seems this guy's only job is to spread confusion. "What is God? What is "is"? What is being?" And to answer your question, renaissance nudes shouldn't be nude. It was perverted then and it's perverted now. It's obscene. Ham was cursed for looking at his father and sharing the fact that his father, Noah, was naked, and we're supposed to think "oh but it's a cool statue!" No. Would Noah want a naked depiction of himself in a church? I don't think so.

Depending on the translation, what took place might have been much worse than that.
 
Top