The Knees Over Toes Guy

The problem is I can't understand what he is saying, or what I should actually do. It looks like he is just doing a normal overhead press with dumbbells.
Maybe this is how you already normally do it.

I used to do DB military presses just like I had a bar in my hands and would lean back and keep them in front of me enough to clear my face, as I would with a bar.
 

get2choppaaa

Ostrich
Here is a video he uploaded on lower back a few days ago

The major issue with back pain that many people do not understand is that core strength prevents disc compression and herniation. When tissues are stressed beyond their capacity they lock up and do not properly segment causing maladaptive responded in the soft gummy part of the spinal cord between the spinal segmentats.

The lack of spinal segmentation, weak abdominals, and obliques and weak glutes/hamstrings all play up on this when added with poor posture and the fact that people rarely know how to brace their abdominal wall (Which is how most people hurt their back when deadlifting)

After about 600 worth of chiropractor treatment without relief I invested in a reverse hyper extension machine. This took me from sever pain and not able to tie my shoes with out grimacing to my current squat and deadlift in the mid 500s)

The one good thing the knees over toes guy is pushing is movement. You have to find a range of motion that works and slowly increase capacity. Small tissues like ligaments and tendons need tremendous volume to get blood flow. For example: tear a pectoral and your chest will turn blue, rupture a patella and youll probably see nothing.

Anyway for those out there with back pain, find the range of Motion you can work in and slowly increase it and overload it.
 
I first discovered The Knees Over Toes guy 6 months ago when researching the differences in ATG squats v. power lifting squats for athletic performance. It has changed how I view so many things when it comes to the human body. I think there is a world of physical athletic knowledge that is yet to be passed around and I am experimenting with my own body.

The traditional knowledge and methods work, and work very well for guys who are already proportioned for it or already very athletic. But if the average guy follows Arnold's roided up routine, they will tear something or burn out very quickly. Squats and Deadlifts are great for guys with the correct build and levers for it. I don't think it would be possible for a lot of the guys in the NBA to correctly perform a squat or deadlift, and they would quickly get hurt from doing them in a routine workout, but they are some of the best athletes in the world.

It would be like asking who is stronger. World's strong men who are often Western European with longer levers or Olympic weight lifters who are often Eastern European or Asian with shorter levers, or NFL Defensive linemen who are often African and much more explosive but less raw power. The answer, they are all different yet incredible strong due to training their natural advantages.

It starts to morph over into ectomorph training, in which I am tempted to start a new thread on ectomorph training. I decided to go full out, no excuses on needing sugar or excess carbs. This probably works great for a majority of the population, but as an ectomorph I lost weight quickly, felt tired all the time and started to sleep 9 to 10 hours a night when previously 7 was the most I could sleep.

I said to hell with it, I am going to do what feels right for my body and not what works for the physically gifted. I read some articles, swapped out bench for the floor press and for the first time ever I actually look like I lift weights. I don't do any more weight, a few more reps, but in doing so my upper body finally started to grow. This is after 25+ years of bench pressing with correct form, all the way down, yada yada. I started to put some sugar back in my diet and add the carbs back. I feel way better and have more energy. I am putting the weight back on and I am sleeping less.

As far as KNOTG training, my one foot jumping came back. I took a video of myself one foot dunking with a volleyball and showed some people a still at the height of my jump. They couldn't believe someone my age could jump that good. And it is 100% due to ditching squats and cleans for ATG Split Squats and Nordics.

I think all in all, with my 6 month ramble is you have to feel what is right for your body. Traditional wisdom is where you must start. From there you have to feel what is best for you. I started in the early 1990's and was addicted to weight training. I have never stopped. I have never taken off more than 1 week at a time. And I am still discovering and rediscovering things about myself.
 

Sword

Sparrow
@It_is_my_time Read this thread and looking forward to a conversation with you. I too am long limbed, and have been chronically hurt from power lifting. I really, really miss dead lifting, but without fail, regardless of what I did my low back would be screwed up and sore for days. It would spill over to even walking hurting.

So I myself am on a journey of sorts to re-figure out things. I started squatting with a trap bar, but that only partly fixed the problem. I think there is a lot going on with bracing in the abs, as well as tightness/weakness I need to sort out.

WHen you say you do ATG split squats how are you doing these? Are regular squats and DL completely gone for you?

For benching what turned my life around was a video that talked about arching your back (always was flat) and setting your lats down and back and twisting your elbows down, it made it far more chest dominate (only felt it in shoulders), now I can bench again. If you are curious I can find the video.
 
Thank you @Sword . The youtube videos on Knees Over Toes Guy's page give a great explanation of how to do an ATG Split squat and how the progression goes. I am still not flexible enough to do a full ATG Split squat without a yellowbook under my foot.

I do one set of ramp board squats, and then one set of ATG Split Squats, twice a week. That is all the squats I do, and I am thinking about cutting back a little on those as well. Part of it is due to age, more so, than anything else. I just don't recover nearly as fast as I used to.

If anyone asked me what is the #1 exercise in the gym, I wouldn't even hesitate to answer "the deadlift". But I can't deadlift with a straight bar. I never got to use a hex bar. I miss deadlifting, before I hurt myself doing it. I was a lot stronger and bigger pulling 300 lbs. off the floor. But if I tried that today I would probably be in a hospital.

I have not done a deadlift in almost 15 years due to injury. I have not done a bar squat in probably a year. Squats never worked for me, I am just glad I never got hurt doing them.

I still bench, but it seems to be a waste of time. I think my T levels have dropped enough to really impact it. I have been bench pressing for over 30 years and I am probably 30% off my all time highs in the lift, and I have done nothing different over the years, except get older.
 

PUA_Rachacha

Woodpecker
@It_is_my_time

For benching what turned my life around was a video that talked about arching your back (always was flat) and setting your lats down and back and twisting your elbows down, it made it far more chest dominate (only felt it in shoulders), now I can bench again. If you are curious I can find the video.
That's exactly how I switched up my bench to reduce shoulder pain. I now bench the most I've ever benched, and I don't have shoulder pain anymore.

I learned the technique through Jeremy Ethier's channel.
 

get2choppaaa

Ostrich
That's exactly how I switched up my bench to reduce shoulder pain. I now bench the most I've ever benched, and I don't have shoulder pain anymore.

I learned the technique through Jeremy Ethier's channel.
Benching is a triceps exercise if you do it correctly. Obviously Pecs and front delts will develop also but the majority of the technique and work should be done by triceps.

The bar path is straight up and down from just below your nipple level.

People hurt their Pecs and shoulders by flaring their elbows and straining their AC joint.

To correctly bench your upper should have slight arch where your scaps are retracted (think the opposite of a shrug).


 

Sword

Sparrow
Bench shouldnt be a primary tricep excercise. Should be pecs first and foremost. Thats what the whole retraction of scapula/lats does, its primes the pec posistion.

Anyone here suffer from APT (anterior pelvic tilt)? Ive dealt with this onand off foryears, its so annoying the nagging pain just from standing. I stretch, work glutes and still cant figure it out.
 

get2choppaaa

Ostrich
Bench shouldnt be a primary tricep excercise. Should be pecs first and foremost. Thats what the whole retraction of scapula/lats does, its primes the pec posistion.

Anyone here suffer from APT (anterior pelvic tilt)? Ive dealt with this onand off foryears, its so annoying the nagging pain just from standing. I stretch, work glutes and still cant figure it out.
We can move this to the powerlifting forum...but...Whats your credibility to say that. Can you bench press 3 plates or 1.5x body weight? I am not sure how much you understand about the biomechanics of the lift or what those who lift beyond just occasional planet fitness lifting do.

Now If youre doing a bench press to your neck for pec work, that's something different. Of course you will get chest growth from standard bench, but nearly every big bender has large upper back, traps, delts, and triceps.

Shoulder and pec tears always occur with weak triceps. Your Pecs and shoulders are loaded, but the stength and drive of the bench is focused in the triceps. This is why most bench presses fail about 1 to 2 inches off the chest where the triceps are continuing drive off of the chest. You retract your scaps to base your shoulders and back on to the pad and prevent your shoulder joint from rolling toward and hurting your AC joint.

Look at what 95 percent all of the
successful benchers do across all weight classes. Straight bar path, wrist over elbows, arch in upper back and large triceps and forearms.

As far as Anterior Pelvic Tilt I've hou d these guys to be helpful with some of the issues i had with my back a couple years ago.

 
I wish KOTG had an upper body routine. If my long legs prevented me from properly developing my lower body strength, I am sure the same is true for my long arms and my upper body. I wish I had a similar set of exercises to replace bench/pressing motions with. I do his style of dumb bell military presses, which is much better than military press with a bar. Probably the best bet is to do decline presses, but I don't have access to a decline press.
 

Sword

Sparrow
We can move this to the powerlifting forum...but...Whats your credibility to say that. Can you bench press 3 plates or 1.5x body weight? I am not sure how much you understand about the biomechanics of the lift or what those who lift beyond just occasional planet fitness lifting do.

Now If youre doing a bench press to your neck for pec work, that's something different. Of course you will get chest growth from standard bench, but nearly every big bender has large upper back, traps, delts, and triceps.

I am not sure what we are arguing about. Are you saying bench is primarily driven by triceps? Then I disagree. If you are saying triceps help with bench, then yes I agree, of course they are one of the main muscles. Its basic bio mechanics that its: pecs, followed by shoulder/tricep.

Ive seen that video a bunch actually. I have stretched the heck out of my hip flexors, I actually think my APT might be from tight upper back/lats.
 

get2choppaaa

Ostrich
I am not sure what we are arguing about. Are you saying bench is primarily driven by triceps? Then I disagree. If you are saying triceps help with bench, then yes I agree, of course they are one of the main muscles. Its basic bio mechanics that its: pecs, followed by shoulder/tricep.

Ive seen that video a bunch actually. I have stretched the heck out of my hip flexors, I actually think my APT might be from tight upper back/lats.

Let me clarify, then I'll drop it so i dont hijack the thread (sorry in advance IIMT)

The main factor in a bench press and movement of the weight and strength is not the stength of the pectorals but rather the triceps. So yes it is primarily driven by triceps not Pecs after you are no longer a novice.

Again every one who moves serious weight knows that if you want a big bench you need strong triceps. The Pectorals may get First Tension Principle applied here, but that does not mean they are the muscle group that results in the most weight being moved.

You can grow hypertrophy from a bench press, of course. And of course a bigger muscle usually equates to more strength. But one cannot seperate the importance of triceps stength in benching.

Again you can perform the exercise with a wide grip and flat back and strain your Pecs and delts, but you will eventually get injured vs using correct form which will allow overload and this eventually produce a greater hypertrophic response to all 3 muscle groups involved less injury thus... My point is thinking of benching as a triceps focused exercise allows the greatest accumulation of volume and workload and maximal stength and intensify.
 
Let me clarify, then I'll drop it so i dont hijack the thread (sorry in advance IIMT)

The main factor in a bench press and movement of the weight and strength is not the stength of the pectorals but rather the triceps. So yes it is primarily driven by triceps not Pecs after you are no longer a novice.

Again every one who moves serious weight knows that if you want a big bench you need strong triceps. The Pectorals may get First Tension Principle applied here, but that does not mean they are the muscle group that results in the most weight being moved.

You can grow hypertrophy from a bench press, of course. And of course a bigger muscle usually equates to more strength. But one cannot seperate the importance of triceps stength in benching.

Again you can perform the exercise with a wide grip and flat back and strain your Pecs and delts, but you will eventually get injured vs using correct form which will allow overload and this eventually produce a greater hypertrophic response to all 3 muscle groups involved less injury thus... My point is thinking of benching as a triceps focused exercise allows the greatest accumulation of volume and workload and maximal stength and intensify.

I appreciate it. This explains part of the reason my bench has fallen off a cliff. I have moved my hands closer together on the bar, putting more of the work on my tris and less on my chest. But this was to prevent injury and focus on form. The weight just never came back and I forgot about moving my hands closer together. But I am not concerned with my max lift amount as much as being in shape and healthier.

I've noticed my tris have popped out more and this would be the reason for it.

Thank you for the explanation. This tells me I need to throw in a set of flies to get more chest work due to the bench not fully hitting the chest.
 
While we are at it @get2choppaaa I have always been confused about a 5x5 workout or anything similar (4x6), etc.

How exactly does that work. Lets say you know you can lift 200 lbs. 5 times. On the best of days maybe 6. If you are real tired 3 or 4 times. So in a 5x5 do you go..

1st set 200 lbs.
2nd set 190 lbs.
3rd set 180 lbs.

Or do you do

1st set 150 lbs.
2nd set 170 lbs.
working up to a 5th set at 200 lbs.

Because no one could lift 200 lbs. for 5 reps, 5 sets, if they top at at 1x5 at 200 lbs.

Your knowledge is greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
 

get2choppaaa

Ostrich
So looks like you're asking about the difference between progressive overload via volume accumulation vs via intensity (% of 1 RM) training.

Can look into prelepin's chart and percentages based training vs the popular thing now which is relative perceived exertion (I dont follow because there's more scientific literature on % training vs "RPE" since most folks cant really gage how hard they are working)

(https://www.elitefts.com/education/training/sports-performance/prilepins-chart/)

Either way you have to accumulate more total tonnage over time to result in more muscle growth. So we could have a flat model of tonnage accumulation vs an ascending set.

A simple program is to do a 5x5 program until you cant add 5 lbs each week then move to a new rep scheme. For example:
Work out 1 135 x 5 sets x 5 reps
Work out 2 140 x 5 sets x 5 reps
Work out 3 145 x 5 sets x 5 reps
work out 4 150 x 4 sets x 5 reps and your last set you only get 3 reps.

So your decision tree would be:

work out 5 you either try 150 AGAIN and do some combonation of 4 sets of 5 reps and shoot for 4 reps on the last set or 5 reps ect... and once you've gotten all 25 reps move on to 155 and shoot for 5x5 ect

OR

work out 5 you move to a new rep scheme (say 6x6 starting back at 135 and progressively overload until you get to the point that you cant get all 36 reps and move on to a new rep scheme ...say 8x8) Then you go back to 5x5 again and you'll have started with a much higher weight amount considering the total accumulation of volume you've just gone through (25 reps to 36 reps to 64 reps)

with 6x6 and 8 x 8 I would use 3 grips: Ultra Wide, Competion(medium) and Close Grip
If you really want to build a thick chest you would do very wide grip (fingers on the rings/outside the rings)

Another rep scheme that works is to work up on ascending sets to a max set of five or six or whatever rep number ( This is more advanced and for folks who know how to regulate their volume/intensity better than just straight sets of 5x5 / 6x6 ect....

So 135x6, 155x 6, 175 x 6, 185 x 5. Then next week try again 135 x 6 155x 6 175 x 6 185 x 6 190 x 4 so on and so forth.


So putting it all together. What I have done is a strenght day where I focus on a max effort exercise 1RM (I change it every week using different bars/chains/grips/bands/heights ect) followed by volume (say 1 RM fat bar incline bench + 4 sets of flies) then a volume or speed day where I'll do 6x6.

A couple months ago I did a bench 6x6 micro cycle that looked like this (My bench max at the time was 335 after some time off of bench) So going off of that 1RM here are the percentages. Per Prilepin's Chart, you really dont want more than 4 reps over 90% in a given work out or you will do too much inroads into your CNS fatigue. BUT thats more advanced stuff.

255 6x6 (76% 1rm)
265 6x6 (79% 1rm)
275 6x6 (82% 1 rm)
285 6x6 (85% 1 rm)
290 6x4, 1x 5, 1 x 3 (87% 1 rm)
290 6x5, 1 x 3
Switched up the exercises as I was getting gettin elbow pain and moved to a fat bar.

If you want more advanced programming for the bench press I can advise on that also. But for aesthetics, you ultimately will have to gain some muscle which is most easily done by gaining strength.

I like a 2x lower body days and 2 x upper body days with 72 hours between hitting the same muscle group.
So If you aren't powerlifing focused and just want to do 2 x upper days, 1 day I would focus on bench and 1 day I would focus on the overhead press as it will strenghten your shoulder girdle and bench as well as heavily work the tricpeps.

An excellent book on this is Louie Simmons Book of Methods if you want the down and dirty on strength accumulation. Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength is good too. He teaches the Squat and Deadlift in a way that MOST people can do with out hurting themselves, as I know you have a history of back issues from DL's (which I again believe could be corrected with a coach who actually knows how to coach the lift) but sounds like the Knees over Toes guy is doing good things for you and at the end of the day the most important thing is to find something you are enjoying and continue doing it.
 

r3d

Woodpecker
Man, I think I've seen this thread title a hundred times since I've joined and never bothered to click it, because I thought it would be amateur lifters discussing squat techniques (like I've read on forums a hundred times).

Turns out it might change my life, haha.

I've been having issues with my knees as well and I'm tall and lean and failed to squat and DL injury free since forever. Very similiar story to OP.

This looks like a very promising approach and I'm on day 1 now, hoping this might be THE THING to free me from knee pain and fix other stuff. But even if it's not: it_is_my_time's experience with mobility improvement and outlook on lifting and life has convinced me to take this whole bio mechanics thing seriously.

I'm in my mid 30s and even though I lift I kind of feel 'frail', like if someone were to bump into me in the streets I might hurt my shoulders or tear a joint. I know it's not a good sign but I felt kind of hopeless about it because physiotherapists never really helped. So this is my kick in the butt to change that. It's no state as a man to go through life.

If this turns out to help more members we need to PM Roosh to add to the title [IF YOU HAVE KNEE PROBLEMS GET IN HERE!]

Cheers and thanks for the original post!
 
I am in my mid 40's, I wish I had this information 30 years ago. It was about 30 years ago I started lifting/training, outside of playing sports. I always struggled in the weight room. But I don't quit easily and I became addicted to it. Maybe subconsciously thinking that if I could get as strong as the stronger guys my life would be perfect. Obviously this isn't true, but I scheduled so many things around gym time that it is just damn silly looking back on it.

And for all those years I struggled greatly, mostly getting no where, and not getting the extra benefits with it, such as things like balance, better health, better sleep, the side benefits were not seen either. Looking back on it, it was due to over training and conventional lifts just do very little for me. I am very long limbed and lean and benching does little (though I still do it as a staple lift twice a week) and squatting/deadlifting was just an injury waiting to happen, that did eventually happen.

The ramp board squats and ATG Split Squats have put more size on my thighs than the previous nearly 30 years of lifting every did. I have better balance, better reflexes, and better flexibility than ever before. This is what the squat is supposed to do for you, but didn't do for me because of my very long legs and no real proper way to squat. I tried every variation. Front Squats, Lower bar back squats, higher bar back squats, Zercher squats, Split squats, Goblet squats. Squats all the way down. Quarter Squats. Jump Squats. Box Squats, High box squats, I am probably forgetting some as well.

And for the first time ever my legs are finally growing with ATG Split Squats and ramp board squats.
 
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