The Knees Over Toes Guy

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
My comment wasn't intended to put down KOTG or his methods. In fact, I'm very much interested in them and have already incorporated some of his exercises like backwards uphill running and the nordic hamstrings to my workouts. This is thanks to you starting the thread, so much appreciated.

For the record, I'm 6'4'' with long arms. I never was a squat god but did and do DL in a respectable range. I agree that as you get older, you need to adjust your training. Closing in on 40, I do mostly lighter front squats and a lot of Bulgarian split squats these days.

I appreciate it. I am certainly not putting down your methods or squatting or deadlifting. I see great benefits of these lifts.

You said you had long arms, I am assuming you might have long legs relative to your torso height. If so, I would recommend hex bar deadlifting v. straight bar. If your legs are not extremely long v. your torso, then straight bar deadlifting might be just fine for you.

I just want the young guy who is working his tail off in the weight room and seeing little to no results (that was me for 30 years, trying every program on the planet and every variation of every lift imaginable) to try out a new method. I don't know if KOT is better for some/most/all, but I do know it is vastly better for me. And that is due to my extremely long legs and the inability to really get much good out of squatting or deadlifting in the traditional sense.

30 years of hard work in the gym is one thing. It is another when you see little to 0 results, no matter what you try, and then stumble upon something like this. I don't want someone else having to struggle for 30 years, beating their head against the wall, like I did.
 

Sword

Sparrow
Catholic
So for squats should I literally be going all the way to the floor? Im flexible enough to do it. When I am that far done it doesnt feel like my butt is pulling me out of it.
 

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
So for squats should I literally be going all the way to the floor? Im flexible enough to do it. When I am that far done it doesnt feel like my butt is pulling me out of it.
With traditional two leg squats - everything I read was that the deeper you go, the better it is, even if the weight will be obviously lighter.

ATG Split Squats are meant to go all the way down. With the ATG Split Squat, going all the way down not only fully works the muscles, it works your flexibility as well. To get all the way down with an ATG Split Squat takes time and work to get that flexible. 7 months in and I am still using 2 inch Yellow Pages book under my front foot.
 

r3d

Woodpecker
Protestant
With traditional two leg squats - everything I read was that the deeper you go, the better it is, even if the weight will be obviously lighter.

ATG Split Squats are meant to go all the way down. With the ATG Split Squat, going all the way down not only fully works the muscles, it works your flexibility as well. To get all the way down with an ATG Split Squat takes time and work to get that flexible. 7 months in and I am still using 2 inch Yellow Pages book under my front foot.

How long did you have to stretch before you could an ATG squat with proper form? Just curious. I've been at it 2 weeks and I'm still a long way out. Though I get noticeably better each time, very rewarding.
 

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
How long did you have to stretch before you could an ATG squat with proper form? Just curious. I've been at it 2 weeks and I'm still a long way out. Though I get noticeably better each time, very rewarding.

I've been doing ATG Split squats for 7 months now and I still need a 2" lift under my front foot and I use assistance to balance on the way down for the first few reps until I get my grove.

So I still cannot fully do them. But I get closer every workout and I get more reps in a deeper range. So it gets better and I can see muscles/size in my legs that I never saw in the previous decades of lifting. So it is working.
 

Sword

Sparrow
Catholic
So you just cut regular squats out completely? When you say split squats, is your rear foot elevated? (bulgarian split squat?)
 

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
So you just cut regular squats out completely? When you say split squats, is your rear foot elevated? (bulgarian split squat?)
For squats, twice a week I do.

1 set of ramp board squats. At this time I am able to do 6 reps with 20 lbs. I don't know if I will ever be able to do my 45 lbs. bar on this lift.
2 sets of ATG Split Squats with no weight and a 2" rise under my front foot and only body weight. I get 7 and then 5 reps at this time.

Regular bar squats don't work me correctly due to my extremely long legs. They either hit my lower back or my quads and miss my hamstrings and glutes. Doing the above lifts hit my legs/glutes much more than back or front bar squats ever did, without the risk of hurting my back.

 

Sword

Sparrow
Catholic
For squats, twice a week I do.

1 set of ramp board squats. At this time I am able to do 6 reps with 20 lbs. I don't know if I will ever be able to do my 45 lbs. bar on this lift.
2 sets of ATG Split Squats with no weight and a 2" rise under my front foot and only body weight. I get 7 and then 5 reps at this time.

Regular bar squats don't work me correctly due to my extremely long legs. They either hit my lower back or my quads and miss my hamstrings and glutes. Doing the above lifts hit my legs/glutes much more than back or front bar squats ever did, without the risk of hurting my back.


Sounds like something I will try. Squats (and deadlifts) always messed up my back, unfortunately. So heres a question I wanted to ask you, when you get in the position what type of 'drive' do you want to feel? Are you pushing up, or pushing backwards?

Do you do any deadlift type stuff anymore, and if not, what do you do for upper traps?
 

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
Sounds like something I will try. Squats (and deadlifts) always messed up my back, unfortunately. So heres a question I wanted to ask you, when you get in the position what type of 'drive' do you want to feel? Are you pushing up, or pushing backwards?

Do you do any deadlift type stuff anymore, and if not, what do you do for upper traps?

At that angle it is both a push up and back. Try to make sure to focus on your front leg and let it do the work. The back leg is just for stability and should not be used to push up. This lift will make you more flexible because it forces you to stretch out your hip flexors and push through your maximum range. Lifting while stretching is the best way to get more flexible. KOTG himself said he stretches very little because all his lifts push his flexibility limit themselves and stretching isn't needed. I still stretch every day, trying to push deeper into the stretch when I breath out and relax a little when I breath in.

I have not deadlifted since I hurt my back doing it. After that day, when I even try to deadlift 135 lbs. my back hurts and sends me warning signs to knock it off. That was in 2006.

Since doing KOTG routine I have become more flexible (I stretched every day for years in a row before starting) and I have much less back pain to the point it is almost gone. I also have less joint stiffness and pain in my feet when I walk long distances.

I am an ectomorph and in my mid 40's so I don't have the ability to workout like a 20 something and get good results. I lift 2 upper body days and 2 leg days a week. Each workout takes about 45 minutes. I do abs on my upper body days and then one additional day by themselves.

For upper traps, I think they get the most work because I run uphill sprints on my leg days and then jump as high as I can off all 4 plants. Swinging your arms up when doing a maximum jump hits the traps. I used to do Cleans, then my back hurt too much and I switched to dynamic high pulls, and now I just do max jumps.
 

Sword

Sparrow
Catholic
Watching that video was good for some, but man that guys posture was absolutely horrendous when he is in the whole, his 'standing up straight' is extreme anterior pelvic tilt, and with any weight would cause a lot of low back pain. Just lean forward some, and it triggers the glutes more.
 

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
Watching that video was good for some, but man that guys posture was absolutely horrendous when he is in the whole, his 'standing up straight' is extreme anterior pelvic tilt, and with any weight would cause a lot of low back pain. Just lean forward some, and it triggers the glutes more.
Here is Ben himself talking about the lift.

 

r3d

Woodpecker
Protestant
Watching that video was good for some, but man that guys posture was absolutely horrendous when he is in the whole, his 'standing up straight' is extreme anterior pelvic tilt, and with any weight would cause a lot of low back pain. Just lean forward some, and it triggers the glutes more.

I thought the same thing. I'm not an expert, but that posture is an injury waiting to happen if you ask me. I've never seen an anterior pelvic tilt like that in somebody who actually works out.
 

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
I thought the same thing. I'm not an expert, but that posture is an injury waiting to happen if you ask me. I've never seen an anterior pelvic tilt like that in somebody who actually works out.
Do you mean at the bottom of the ATG Split Squat? If so, it is a natural movement and you have to be flexible enough to get into that position. I've been doing it for almost 8 months now and I still can't get all the way down with no weight.

You sure will not get that far down your first day, it takes time to become more flexible.
 

hedonist

Kingfisher
Other Christian
For anyone who has torn ligaments in the past/dislocated their patella did these exercises help improve your stability/knee pain etc?
 

r3d

Woodpecker
Protestant
Do you mean at the bottom of the ATG Split Squat? If so, it is a natural movement and you have to be flexible enough to get into that position. I've been doing it for almost 8 months now and I still can't get all the way down with no weight.

You sure will not get that far down your first day, it takes time to become more flexible.

I meant the first video and purely the guy's individual posture as he stands. Not even the way he performs the squat. Just an observation because it's strange they would use an athlete with such obvious muscle imbalances for a video on exercise form.

Then again there are many things I don't know about the human body. Maybe there is a secret to being healthy and injury free despite such imbalances.
 

Sword

Sparrow
Catholic
I meant the first video and purely the guy's individual posture as he stands. Not even the way he performs the squat. Just an observation because it's strange they would use an athlete with such obvious muscle imbalances for a video on exercise form.

Then again there are many things I don't know about the human body. Maybe there is a secret to being healthy and injury free despite such imbalances.
I agree completely. As someone that has battled ATP for a long time, I have a hair trigger seeing it in others. Having such a bad APT actually shows your glutes arent strong enough to hold you, you actually need to bend forward more to get the glutes firing.
 

r3d

Woodpecker
Protestant
For anyone who has torn ligaments in the past/dislocated their patella did these exercises help improve your stability/knee pain etc?

I can't speak from experience, but I've watched many hours of material on the kneesovertoes system and it seems it helps any and all knee problems. Sounds like a magic bullet, and it kind of is, but it's also a lot of hard work with many different exercises that all aim to stabilize and strengthen the knee joint.

Hamstring strength is a big focus in that system so it coincides with what get2choppaaa says


edit: He has been on the strength podcast for the second time. Very entertaining, but more so for geeks and people who like background info and dive deep into the philosophy/origin of his stuff.

If you want to learn about him for the first time, better watch his own videos on exercise form and selection



Their title is spot on though:

The Most Talked About Man In Fitness, Knees Over Toes Guy Ben Patrick​


I think everyone who tries it gets the natural urge to talk about it, because it's just so revolutionary and at the same time it's insane that noone has brought forth this information before him in this day and age.
I don't even want to think about how many million people a year are being cut open for _completely_ unnecessary knee surgeries.
 
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r3d

Woodpecker
Protestant
I agree completely. As someone that has battled ATP for a long time, I have a hair trigger seeing it in others. Having such a bad APT actually shows your glutes arent strong enough to hold you, you actually need to bend forward more to get the glutes firing.

Who won the battle by the way and what did you do? I have a pretty good anterior tilt too with matching kyphosis and all. I'm thinking of doing the neanderthal-no-more routine from T-Nation a while back:


I just hate how gimmicky it is and how I need to probably print the whole thing and take it to the gym with me, not really lifting but doing weird stuff. I I knew it would help 100% I would do it in a heartbeat, but I'm not completely sold on it yet.
 

Sword

Sparrow
Catholic
Who won the battle by the way and what did you do? I have a pretty good anterior tilt too with matching kyphosis and all. I'm thinking of doing the neanderthal-no-more routine from T-Nation a while back:


I just hate how gimmicky it is and how I need to probably print the whole thing and take it to the gym with me, not really lifting but doing weird stuff. I I knew it would help 100% I would do it in a heartbeat, but I'm not completely sold on it yet.
So, ive tried a million things, from stretching, to deadlifting through it. It obv depends on your issues, but something I didnt see, and helped me huge was doing back extensions on an exercise ball.It stretches the back, and works the glutes and hamstrings in a way nothing else apparently did. Go for 3 sets of 10 a day. I notice if I am diligent my back pain is gone, if I stop, my pain creeps in about a week down the road.
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