The Knees Over Toes Guy

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
How do you avoid your back knee hitting the ground with weight on the ATG split?
I try to keep my back knee off the ground to force my groin to stretch more. But at times my back knee does touch the ground. Sometimes from a bad descend into the squat or sometimes from a slight loss of balance. The more I do them, the less this happens.

When it does touch I just focus on the leg doing the squat and make sure to squat back up correctly using my glute, hamstring and quad in that leg.

The ATG Split Squat really improve groin and hip flexibility.
 

r3d

Woodpecker
Protestant
How do you avoid your back knee hitting the ground with weight on the ATG split?

If money isn't a big concern for you, you might consider sending a form-check to the ATG guys. It's their business model basically. I don't think it's overly expensive and to start out it could be totally worth it.

Your back knee hitting the floor sounds to me like there is still a mobility limitation. Maybe that can be solved with specific stretches. And if that were the case the ATG guys certainly would know.

Be sure not to force anything. I seem to have squeezed a nerve that runs along the hip by stretching too ambitiously. Can't do the ATG split squat at all now, until I found a solution.
 

fireshark

Kingfisher
Other Christian
I think fans of the KOT guy will like this guy. Especially if you like bodyweight stuff, maximizing longevity, and a smarter not harder approach to fitness and physique.

What he talks about here, the High Energy Flux, is basically what I ended up doing on my own, through trial and error, after a serious food allergy and GI sickness late last year totally wrecked my body, my ability to train, and forced me to totally rethink my diet and fitness approach.

Right now I use a combination of Boges and ATG workouts and I love it. My workouts are quite often my favorite part of my day, and now that I have a much better handle on and a deeper understanding of the nutrition side of it, I'm getting awesome results.



This video is also incredibly informative for those of us prioritizing for long-term health, volume and consistency.

 

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
I think fans of the KOT guy will like this guy. Especially if you like bodyweight stuff, maximizing longevity, and a smarter not harder approach to fitness and physique.

What he talks about here, the High Energy Flux, is basically what I ended up doing on my own, through trial and error, after a serious food allergy and GI sickness late last year totally wrecked my body, my ability to train, and forced me to totally rethink my diet and fitness approach.

Right now I use a combination of Boges and ATG workouts and I love it. My workouts are quite often my favorite part of my day, and now that I have a much better handle on and a deeper understanding of the nutrition side of it, I'm getting awesome results.



This video is also incredibly informative for those of us prioritizing for long-term health, volume and consistency.


How are you using the Boges information? Are you doing mostly bodyweight exercises, rarely going to failure, and working out more frequently?

I have found with the KOT leg routine I can get my legs in three times a week and get better results. I run sprints and do jumping drills three times a week, something I would have never thought I could do at my age prior to KOT. I still do upper body twice a week. I do heavy lifting and go to failure each day. And I have wondered if I went lighter but trained my upper body three times a week if I wouldn't have better results.
 

fireshark

Kingfisher
Other Christian
How are you using the Boges information? Are you doing mostly bodyweight exercises, rarely going to failure, and working out more frequently?
Basically, yes.

Training to failure is probably good for certain people, and for 17-25 year-olds with zero health issues, but my own experience has shown that it's not optimal in any way, and less and less ideal as I age. Of course some exercises, like abs, can usually go to failure, no problem.

When it comes to legs / lower body, it's hard to beat the KOT guy. He's a master in that area. For upper body I find Boges more oriented toward what I need and want to do. Though Boges video about horse stance and single set training is pretty powerful for lower body, and something I'm working on, not just for fitness, but for mental toughness.

Currently I'm about 60/40 upper/lower body focused. I aim for 3 upper and 2 lower training days, with an experimentation / variety day and a rest day. The KOT guy and Boges are both in the consistent volume beats total exertion camp. I think Boges and KOT guy would agree on many points, but I find Boges explains some things more clearly.

This video pretty much sums it up. Think about weekly, not daily goals and distribution of workload over multiple days instead of all sets in the same single workout. Also, better form and quality while you're training because you are not so close to failure and blowing out your entire energy reserve.

Finally, for effort it's like this:

Failure sets = generally bad / prolongs recovery / limits weekly volume
Easy sets = generally bad / no growth
Hard sets = best balance between growth and strain

 
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It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
Basically, yes.

Training to failure is probably good for certain people, and for 17-25 year-olds with zero health issues, but my own experience has shown that it's not optimal in any way, and less and less ideal as I age. Of course some exercises, like abs, can usually go to failure, no problem.

When it comes to legs / lower body, it's hard to beat the KOT guy. He's a master in that area. For upper body I find Boges more oriented toward what I need and want to do. Though Boges video about horse stance and single set training is pretty powerful for lower body, and something I'm working on, not just for fitness, but for mental toughness.

Currently I'm about 60/40 upper/lower body focused. I aim for 3 upper and 2 lower training days, with an experimentation / variety day and a rest day. The KOT guy and Boges are both in the consistent volume beats total exertion camp. I think Boges and KOT guy would agree on many points, but I find Boges explains some things more clearly.

This video pretty much sums it up. Think about weekly, not daily goals and distribution of workload over multiple days instead of all sets in the same single workout. Also, better form and quality while you're training because you are not so close to failure and blowing out your entire energy reserve.

Finally, for effort it's like this:

Failure sets = generally bad / prolongs recovery / limits weekly volume
Easy sets = generally bad / no growth
Hard sets = best balance between growth and strain

I have a few questions about how you are using this training. You say you do upper body three times a week, because you are not going to failure. How are you doing this. More specifically... Do you train the same muscles all three days (pushups and pullups each day) or do you alternate push/pull between each workout? What exercises are you doing? Pushups and Pullups are great, but that alone will not allow 99% of men to look anything like Boges looks like. I do pushups and pullups within my routine and I know they are great exercises but those alone will not build my biceps or triceps or delts. It seems like nothing will build my delts, but that is besides the point.

And the "not to failure" setup I don't understand. I understand the concept, and I don't know if it would work for me or not, but how do you lift but not to failure? I mean are you doing some pushups and you say "wow, these are getting tough, but I have at least two more in the tank" so you do one more and stop? Of course then again, what exactly is "failure"? If you are doing pushups and your last one is nearly impossible but you get it, did you really fail or should you try one more and not finish the lift and then roll over and stand up?

I am very interested but his videos seem to cause me to ask more questions than answers. Also, I am skeptical that this kind of training will do much for tall lanky guys like me. Everything I have read about training for guys like me is go very heavy and get out of the gym quickly. Where as his training seems to be light and high volume, which never worked for me in the past.
 

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
@fireshark I've been watching some of the videos on Kyle's channel and I am very intrigued. A lot of what he says not only makes sense, it seems like a very common real world observation from playing sports. I played a lot of basketball, and very few basketball players were impressive in the weight room. They are far too long to put up impressive weight, despite being super athletes. They can run, jump, stop on a dime, and many do it at 6'5" and taller. So there is more to physical strength/health than just the weight room.

I am not sure exactly what you are doing on your three days of upper body. But here is what I plan to do:

3 days of legs, like I have been doing with the knees over toes guy workout. I have had great results with it, though I am tempted to throw in a high rep body weight only squat once in a while. I recently got a hand-me down bicycle, so I might just do that instead.

2 days of upper body lifting, like I have been doing, but taking out a few isolation sets and replacing it with a more compound calisthenics exercise. Such as bear crawls and plank push ups instead of a bunch of sets of front and side deltoid raises.

And then on my other two days I can do some lighter calisthenics and abs. A few sets of pushups and a few sets of pullups and maybe some bear crawls. Nothing to complete failure, just a nice pump until I feel tired.

My deltoids have always lagged and it has felt like I could work them more/they don't get enough work in the weight room alone. I believe this might help my lagging deltoids.

I am a little iffy on dropping an upper body lifting day for a calisthenics day at this time. I don't know if only 1 day a week bench pressing (just 1 set to failure) is enough or not.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
 

fireshark

Kingfisher
Other Christian
With Kyle, so much of what he was doing came easy and natural to me because I was basically already doing 60% of what he does and was already coming to a lot of same conclusions and preferences after years of training. Also being out of training for about 4 months with my recent illness (the longest I've been out of training in 5 years) really gave me some perspective on what training means to me, why I'm doing it, and how I want to do it. Someone else may look at what Kyle does and absolutely hate it or at least think that they personally would hate doing it, wouldn't work for them, whatever. The best part about the body and about training, if that there's absolutely no reason to do something you don't want to do or that you know doesn't work for you, specifically.

Training (and nutrition) is very tricky because you can't just be totally clueless and do whatever you want and expect results, but at the same time, once you have a foundational set of knowledge about training and your own body, you sorta need to throw out the conventional rulebook and rebuild everything according to no one else but yourself, while still utilizing the advice and suggestions and hard-won experience and lessons of others. So yeah...it's tricky.

Kyle's is definitely not saying just do push-ups and pull-ups and you're done. He does a good variety of exercises, but he also does a lot of variations and progressions of the same exercise. He doesn't do the same variation in back-to-back days. His overall goal is also not traditional bodybuilding and hypertrophy at all costs, but he is still very interested in aesthetics, which I love about his approach (Greek statue body). According to my overall understanding of his program, he does 3-4 different main exercises a day. These are exercises that he is trying to optimize to complete a minimum of 10-20 sets of every single week. Basically how many reps can you do of pull-ups and still complete 10-20 sets of them every week? This is all about your personal max. If your failure set is 12 reps, then you'd probably want 10 reps per set. But then you have to think if you can do 10 sets of 10 reps in a single week. You have to find what your limit is. 10 sets of 10 reps a week might be super easy for you, so even if your failure set is still 12 reps, you'd want to up the weekly sets to 15 or whatever. You need to do the same for all of your main exercises. Only you can find the answer since it's based on your body and where you are right now.

Failure is pretty easy to understand:
1. The complete breakdown of form - if your push-up doesn't look like a measured, solid, proper push-up, you're at failure.
2. Inability to continue. If you literally can't move anymore, you've hit failure.

Knowing when you are close to failure is all about mental focus and mind-muscle coordination. His program is not great for beginners because they likely haven't developed this much at all yet. But even for intermediate - advanced, you can't expect to have great mind-muscle coordination the first time you do a new exercise. Kyle focuses very heavily on mental focus and rock solid form. I love this about his approach. Then you can add pauses and holds to your form to make it ever harder.

I'm doing alternating Pull / Push days for upper body days. If I did push last time, I do pull this time. I may use the same exercise, or I may not, but I never use the same variation back-to-back. I'm still finding exactly what variations give me the best results, and I'll likely have to change them up after awhile anyway. Most exercises are bodyweight / calisthenics / bar work / ring work, but I also use dumbells and resistance bands. So far I don't use any cable / weight machines, or barbells.

I focus 60% on upper body because that's what my body needs. Someone else may not need this and will prefer more legs days or something. With my variation day I'm experimenting with different things like horse stance, super-sets, burpees, farmer's carry etc. I just plan out 3-4 exercises in my head and do them. I do abs with my leg days and on my variation day.
 
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It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
I love everything about this. Boges is a fitness genius in my opinion. At the same time, this is just highly refined common sense and practicality.


I'm really impressed with what I have seen of him. When you look at fitness in a long term arch, does it matter if you can deadlift 500 lbs. or squat 500 lbs., if you can't run or jump? And even then, for how many years of your life can you put 500 lbs. on your back and squat it? If you are young this is a great way to workout, but as you age it becomes more and more risky.

It has made me change how I view working out. I forever went to failure, pushed myself hard a few times a week and then rested. I got okay results with it, but nothing spectacular. Then I do some plance pushups and finally I could feel my front delts be worked. It just feels like I am getting a more natural/better workout doing this v. bench pressing.

Also the going to failure over and over is probably not a good idea at my age. Now I bench to failure once a week, ATG Split Squat failure three times a week, and Nordics failure once a week. Outside of that, everything is stopping with a rep or two in the tank and I feel a lot better.
 

fireshark

Kingfisher
Other Christian
I used to do all kinds of flashy skill moves on the bar because in my head I didn't think of them as any different from just doing a set of pull-ups or something. And because they are difficult I just assumed they are superior.

Now I realize that the frequent shoulder and sometimes wrist pain I had for years doing calisthenics / bar work was because of moves like that. The last two months have been the most pain free since I first started doing calisthenics in 2017.

A set of chest-to-bar wide pull-ups with pauses is every bit as hard as any skill move that I ever managed to pull off, and it doesn't cause one bit of pain. So far things are happening exactly like he says. I'm getting lean and shredded. I've actually noticed more hypertrophy as a result of not going to failure, but keeping my volume up. My muscles don't ache all day long and yet I feel them growing, slowly and steadily. It will of course hit a wall, but right now it's working very well. The truth is, a body like Kyle's is the result of 5-10 years of dedicated training and nutrition. There are no shortcuts to true strength, work capacity, definition, and leanness.

After I get to the level of leanness and muscle development that I want, I want to integrate more work capacity exercises. Work capacity is another very interesting part of training that he talks about that others almost never mention. If you only train for massive lifts inside of a building using very specific equipment, you will grow specific muscles very fast, but you will never develop a level of work capacity anywhere close to someone like Kyle.
 

rodion

Sparrow
Orthodox
I really like Boges’ stuff and his approach to training, probably something I will adopt more as I age. The struggle I have with it is my ego, I am finding it very hard to leave behind squatting 4 plates+ in the gym but for my health I need to focus more on athleticism.

The reality of natty powerlifting is to get serious numbers (500lbs+ on squat and deadlift) you probably have to be pretty fat and not much good at anything else.
 

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
I really like Boges’ stuff and his approach to training, probably something I will adopt more as I age. The struggle I have with it is my ego, I am finding it very hard to leave behind squatting 4 plates+ in the gym but for my health I need to focus more on athleticism.

The reality of natty powerlifting is to get serious numbers (500lbs+ on squat and deadlift) you probably have to be pretty fat and not much good at anything else.
Yea, to squat or deadlift 500 lbs., you have to be extremely well gifted genetically. The average guy can't go to a gym for 10 years straight and one day squat or deadlift 500 lbs. I don't think the average guy could do it with steroids, without tearing up his body. And by extremely well gifted genetically, I don't just mean strong, I mean built to do this as well. I highly doubt most MLB or NBA basketball players could ever lift that much weight. But they are extremely gifted athletes who make millions a year due to it.

And true, most of the guys who could lift this much weight are likely very large round men. Built something like the world's strongmen competition. If I had the genetics to do it, I would enjoy it because it would be cool to lift that much AND having that much size is intimidating to others so it is a wall of protection.

But if you can lift that much weight and can't run or jump, then it is almost pointless. If you don't have endurance to defend yourself from a mob of violent people, and to run and get away, you are done more harm than good. So I think it all has to be incorporated together and in doing this your DL and Squat numbers may never be your genetic potential max, but you will be in better overall shape to defend yourself and to live a long healthy life.

I guess at the end of the day, the question is "do you want to be a vain body builder or do you want to be a functional athletic soldier?". And I could never blame a younger man in his 20's for wanting to be a body builder and see where his potential max leads him. Certainly go for it. Just remember we live very long lives and there is no reason for a man to be "40 and over the hill".

I saw where my genetic potential ended up, and it wasn't all that impressive but it was decent and I enjoyed the extra mass and strength. Then I hurt my back deadlifting, just doing a set of 5 when I was 28, and I could never deadlift again. After that it was years of wondering and trying to figure out which direction to go and then thinking "oh well, I am old, I can't be athletic any more". It wasn't until I came across the Knees Over Toes Guy that I realized there was an entire world beyond the Globo Gym. And add Boges to it and it has changed how I view fitness. Then again, I am in my mid-40's, so it is easy for me to say "nah, don't worry about heavy weight", because I have been there and done that and some things we just need to learn and experience on our own.
 

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
My big update recently is diet. Ben recommends meat, avocados and fruit. He doesn't turn down veggies or dairy, but they are not staples of his diet. For meat I believe he sticks with mostly lower fat beef and fish.

I cut out my carbs. I figured I likely didn't need carbs and I was right. I haven't lost any strength and I weight about 10 lbs. less. I do eat some fruit, apples, grapes, and raisins. I don't eat a lot of it, but if I need a sugar fix I have some of these fruits. Most of my diet is eggs (4 a day), ground beef (I get 80/20), chicken breast, sausage (processed, ugh), broccoli, cheese, yogurt, blue berries and almonds.

I would like to get rid of most of the dairy and add in fish, and then get rid of the sausage, but it is tough in these economic times as it is. It would cause my grocery bill to really increase. I might do this after the first of the year, with a goal of an alumni tourney that spring. Dairy is tough to give up though, it is so convenient and high protein. The only dairy I have in my diet is cheese and Greek plain yogurt.

Does Boges have a diet plan?

You have the paleo plan, but it has no dairy on it, ugh.

Then you have keto, but it has no fruit. Though I guess I don't eat as much fruit as I once did as my sweet tooth disappears.
 

prisonplanet

Robin
Other Christian
I like the KOTG's approach to fitness. I am at my best when I listen to my body, be my own doctor of sorts, but his general idea of bulletproofing is sound. I think the best compliment you could give a man is that he is CAPABLE. Capable of walking, running, jumping, climbing. Capable of withstanding falls. Capable of punching and taking a punch, etc. Rather than necessarily just doing one thing really well.

Five years ago I was flat broken. My sinful life had caught up to my body. I think God let me fall so hard so I would turn to him. I don't work out for vanity anymore but functionality (although I really think a functional body also winds up looking good as well). Five years ago, on a scale of 1-10, my physical health was honestly close to a 2 or 3. I'm probably at a 5 or 6 now. I'd like to get to an 8 or so (I think if you're at a 10, you may be making an idol out of your body, but that's just me.
 

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
I like the KOTG's approach to fitness. I am at my best when I listen to my body, be my own doctor of sorts, but his general idea of bulletproofing is sound. I think the best compliment you could give a man is that he is CAPABLE. Capable of walking, running, jumping, climbing. Capable of withstanding falls. Capable of punching and taking a punch, etc. Rather than necessarily just doing one thing really well.

Five years ago I was flat broken. My sinful life had caught up to my body. I think God let me fall so hard so I would turn to him. I don't work out for vanity anymore but functionality (although I really think a functional body also winds up looking good as well). Five years ago, on a scale of 1-10, my physical health was honestly close to a 2 or 3. I'm probably at a 5 or 6 now. I'd like to get to an 8 or so (I think if you're at a 10, you may be making an idol out of your body, but that's just me.
Yea, his bulletproofing concepts are really great. When I do jumping drills I try to land as deep in my knees (squatting down) as I can. I can feel the pressure in the knee, but not enough to hurt it, just to make it stronger. The fact Ben can full squat dunk and then land back in a full squat is beyond amazing. I didn't even think it was humanly possible.

I am a tall lanky guy, and like most tall lanky guys, I naturally had terrible posture. I had stiff hips, I used to tend to round my back, etc. After doing his program for almost 16 months, my posture is great. My hips are so much more loose and flexible, it feels like a new body. My stronger hamstrings and tibs allow me to stop on a dime. And it allows me to focus on keeping my spinal erectors in place so my posture is correct. This allows me to have less pain, more energy, and go further when doing things. The number of women who either check me out or flat out have asked me out is pretty crazy. That never happened before this program. But I am too busy in my life for women right now, though it is one hell of a compliment and I make sure to not let it go to my head.
 

prisonplanet

Robin
Other Christian
Yea, his bulletproofing concepts are really great. When I do jumping drills I try to land as deep in my knees (squatting down) as I can. I can feel the pressure in the knee, but not enough to hurt it, just to make it stronger. The fact Ben can full squat dunk and then land back in a full squat is beyond amazing. I didn't even think it was humanly possible.

I am a tall lanky guy, and like most tall lanky guys, I naturally had terrible posture. I had stiff hips, I used to tend to round my back, etc. After doing his program for almost 16 months, my posture is great. My hips are so much more loose and flexible, it feels like a new body. My stronger hamstrings and tibs allow me to stop on a dime. And it allows me to focus on keeping my spinal erectors in place so my posture is correct. This allows me to have less pain, more energy, and go further when doing things. The number of women who either check me out or flat out have asked me out is pretty crazy. That never happened before this program. But I am too busy in my life for women right now, though it is one hell of a compliment and I make sure to not let it go to my head.

I think women tend to look at men who have large muscles but aren't very otherwise athletic the same way a man looks at a woman with large cleavage who isn't otherwise beautiful. The large muscles may turn the woman on but not make her think, 'this looks like a husband/father type.'

Good husbands and wives, as good servants to God, should be ready to answer a call to action. It's ashame so many of us have to learn the hard way that our life should be built on service. Serve Christ, and he will take care of the rest. It isn't complicated. Hard, yes, but simple.

I'm glad you were able to turn things around and get to such a good place. Losing our physical abilities, especially the simple ones like running and jumping, is profoundly disheartening. There was a point where my back was so messed up, and couldn't bend my left leg, so I could hardly walk. I wasn't suicidal, but I did want to give up. I know many men who are where I used to be, some worse off. I just tell them, it's going to take Christ, and it's going to take work. My dad is 63 and is in great shape. He climbs trees for a living and says he has no to plans to retire. He was once paralyzed from the waist down after a tree he was climbing split in two, and he fell 60 feet nearly dying. Doctors said he'd never walk again; within two years he was running. He's also a Christian and trusted that God would get him right again. Whenever I hear people say "the body doesn't regenerate" this or that, using "science" by doctors paid to keep people on a treadmill of surgery and pills, I just tune that out. With Christ ALL things are possible. There's no reason for anyone to give up.
 
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