The new cold war with China

Enigma

Hummingbird
Gold Member
This is a very confused, mostly strawman-type list of arguments.

Which insurgencies is China funding lately? I know Mao funded the Khmer Rouge back in the day. I don't think they're stuck in that mindset 40 years later, I don't believe China is engaging in CIA "gamma"-style destabilizations (see ISIS, Honduras, Boka Haram etc), they are too busy building trillion dollar infrastructure projects all over the world. When you invest tens of billions into countries' infrastructure, you have a strong economic stake in the political stability of those countries.

Are we (US, Saudi) not funding ISIS in China today? Are cults like the Eastern Lightning "Christian" sect, or Falun Gong funded and supported from abroad? The Taiping Rebellion tells you why China would be very nervous about being destabilized through religious rebellions they have had a long history of being gutted and destroyed by these types of revolts. They are entirely within their right in suppressing ISIS-style jihadis, as did the Russians in Chechnya.
You don't even have basic knowledge of Southeast Asian history nor the Asian theatre of the Cold War. This is why you, like most of the pro-China sycophants, have such a biased view on events.

There were decades long communist insurgencies and civil wars all over Southeast Asia during the mid to late 20th century. All of them had levels of Chinese support, funding, and or training, depending on their proximity to China.

Lao monarchy overthrown by Chinese-backed Pathet Lao. Cambodia government overthrown by Chinese-backed Khmer Rouge. Chinese-backed failed coup in Indonesia that led to the purging of hundreds of thousands of communists and suspected communists.

15-20 year armed insurgencies in Malaysia and Thailand. 40-year insurgency in Burma. 50+ year ongoing insurgency in the Philippines. That's not to mention the proxy wars in places like Vietnam and Korea.

I would also note that in almost every one of these countries, most notably in Indonesia, Malaysia, and Thailand, it wasn't just the PRC that was implicated in this instability, it was ethnic Chinese in general.

None of this is controversial. It's been covered by many sources, and most history books dealing with the region will touch on one or more of the above events. Many of the above countries broke official diplomatic ties with China during that period, and ASEAN and its predecessor SEATO were largely created in response. China only toned this down as a counter to Vietnam.

There was also Chinese support for insurgents in India; and according to India, there still is, which is but one source of tension between the two countries. It would seem Myanmar shares in some of these accusations, considering recent comments and cooperation with India.

And then there's the drug cartels and similar issues. Even the anti-UN, anti-CIA, nationalist drug-dealer-killing president of the Philippines has pointed to what everyone already knows, which is that the drug (meth) trade in the Philippines and other countries is fueled by China:

"Where is the big fish? If you want them, go to China." -- Duterte


"Hey, I have to invade a country to arrest the drug lords. They’re billionaires there. You can’t just get them."

"I will not name the country but obviously it is known to you."


I'm not interested in normie-tier "CIA vs. China, which one worser" arguments. Especially when the CIA and global technocrats built modern China.

I've made several very specific points and you have no coherent response to any of them.
 

Enigma

Hummingbird
Gold Member
Unfortunately the Chinese lack of mainstream Christian culture leaves it open to charismatic guru charlatans

You see it in South Korea as well. The recent converts there have little biblical knowledge, there is no theological framework so they can be manipulated into following wolves in sheepclothes
In reality, the Qing started out persecuting Catholics. They had already started persecuting the religion in the 17th century and officially banned it in 1724, more than a century before Taipeng.

The Catholic Church considers many of the Christians killed during this period, starting in 1648 and continuing through the Boxer Rebellion, as not just martyrs but martyr saints.


They also consider many of the Catholics killed in 16th century Japan to be martyrs. When one researches the Christian persecution there and in other Asian countries, like Vietnam, we see that the Jesuits were actually involved in fomenting rebellions and operated as an arm of the Portuguese government.

Of course, by 911's logic, these governments would have been perfectly justified in "re-educating" these Catholics to atheism. Which is why his entire argument is completely self-destructive.

Morality is an objective standard, not a running tally based on historical blood feuds.
 

911

Peacock
Gold Member
You don't even have basic knowledge of Southeast Asian history nor the Asian theatre of the Cold War. This is why you, like most of the pro-China sycophants, have such a biased view on events.

There were decades long communist insurgencies and civil wars all over Southeast Asia during the mid to late 20th century. All of them had levels of Chinese support, funding, and or training, depending on their proximity to China.

Lao monarchy overthrown by Chinese-backed Pathet Lao. Cambodia government overthrown by Chinese-backed Khmer Rouge. Chinese-backed failed coup in Indonesia that led to the purging of hundreds of thousands of communists and suspected communists.

15-20 year armed insurgencies in Malaysia and Thailand. 40-year insurgency in Burma. 50+ year ongoing insurgency in the Philippines. That's not to mention the proxy wars in places like Vietnam and Korea.

I would also note that in almost every one of these countries, most notably in Indonesia, Malaysia, and Thailand, it wasn't just the PRC that was implicated in this instability, it was ethnic Chinese in general.

None of this is controversial. It's been covered by many sources, and most history books dealing with the region will touch on one or more of the above events. Many of the above countries broke official diplomatic ties with China during that period, and ASEAN and its predecessor SEATO were largely created in response. China only toned this down as a counter to Vietnam.

There was also Chinese support for insurgents in India; and according to India, there still is, which is but one source of tension between the two countries. It would seem Myanmar shares in some of these accusations, considering recent comments and cooperation with India.

And then there's the drug cartels and similar issues. Even the anti-UN, anti-CIA, nationalist drug-dealer-killing president of the Philippines has pointed to what everyone already knows, which is that the drug (meth) trade in the Philippines and other countries is fueled by China:
...

I'm not interested in normie-tier "CIA vs. China, which one worser" arguments. Especially when the CIA and global technocrats built modern China.

I've made several very specific points and you have no coherent response to any of them.

I did answer your question, you're ignoring this, talking about he Cold War and ignoring what is going on the last 30 years. Here is what I wrote:

"Which insurgencies is China funding lately? I know Mao funded the Khmer Rouge back in the day. I don't think they're stuck in that mindset 40 years later, I don't believe China is engaging in CIA "gamma"-style destabilizations"

As you know, the Khmer Rouge was in the 1970s. Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand were also 30-40 years ago. Obama's mother was involved in Indonesian dirty war were hundreds of thousands of civilians were purged. There haven't been any Maoist guerillas there being funded by China for decades, China has been too busy investing tens of billions in the region in economic projects.

When you invest billions into roads, hotels, powerplants, factories and hospitals, you definitely don't want guerilla wars in those areas, you want tourism and a stable economy. SEA has been the most economically stable and dynamic region in the developing world for the last several decades in large part due to Chinese investment. China is not bombing or occupying militarily any country, while the US military is in several dozen countries, and involved in a dozen wars, most often as an occupying military force. China is instead investing billions building infrastructure.

There are sets of problems with Chinese economic influence and controls, but those aren't the type of problems Laos or Cambodia had in the 1970s when they were torn apart with deadly communist militias and military invasions, or the problems that several countries in Asia and Africa are suffering from today due to American military invasions and occupations.

China is the manufacturing center in the region, including for pharmaceuticals and chemicals. They do manufacture most of the chemicals that go into meth and other drugs, but they do not grow opium or marijuana. 90%+ of the world's opium is grown in Afghanistan, where the American military are used to protect poppy fields and the US deep state distributes heroin and opiates worldwide.



That's also one of the main reasons we were mired in the Vietnam War, back when the Golden Triangle was the main opium production center in the world. The opium trade, which was started by Britain 250 years ago, is alive and well today.


China is certainly not without its flaws, but to claim that it is an agent of chaos and military invasions in the 21st century is very foolish, especially when you contrast its foreign operations with those of the US.
 

Enigma

Hummingbird
Gold Member
When you invest billions into roads, hotels, powerplants, factories and hospitals, you definitely don't want guerilla wars in those areas, you want tourism and a stable economy. SEA has been the most economically stable and dynamic region in the developing world for the last several decades in large part due to Chinese investment. China is not bombing or occupying militarily any country, while the US military is in several dozen countries, and involved in a dozen wars, most often as an occupying military force. China is instead investing billions building infrastructure.
This is really the root problem in your reasoning.

In your last post, you claimed that the US was funding organizations to destabilize China. And yet the US invests billions into China -- and has done so for centuries.

How is that possible?

How is it possible that David Rockefeller can both invest huge sums in Chinese infrastructure and also support things like Mao's Cultural Revolution?

How is it possible that US intelligence agencies destabilize the US?

According to your post above, it's not, since countries don't destabilize places they've invested in. But it actually is possible.

You simply apply two different interpretations to the US and China. Which is why you engage in basic contradictions like the above.

I apply the same standard to both, which is why I'm extremely critical of both.
 
China’s Global Threat to Human Rights

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An excellent article about the PRC strategies to control and suppress dissent, both at home and globally... And how their policies have hampered international human rights efforts for numerous groups...

"At home, the Chinese Communist Party, worried that permitting political freedom would jeopardize its grasp on power, has constructed an Orwellian high-tech surveillance state and a sophisticated internet censorship system to monitor and suppress public criticism. Abroad, it uses its growing economic clout to silence critics and to carry out the most intense attack on the global system for enforcing human rights since that system began to emerge in the mid-20th century.

Beijing was long focused on building a “Great Firewall” to prevent the people of China from being exposed to any criticism of the government from abroad. Now the government is increasingly attacking the critics themselves, whether they represent a foreign government, are part of an overseas company or university, or join real or virtual avenues of public protest.

No other government is simultaneously detaining a million members of an ethnic minority for forced indoctrination and attacking anyone who dares to challenge its repression. And while other governments commit serious human rights violations, no other government flexes its political muscles with such vigor and determination to undermine the international human rights standards and institutions that could hold it to account.

If not challenged, Beijing’s actions portend a dystopian future in which no one is beyond the reach of Chinese censors, and an international human rights system so weakened that it no longer serves as a check on government repression."

"Beijing’s approach puts it at odds with the very purpose of international human rights. Where others see people facing persecution whose rights need defending, China’s rulers see a potential precedent of rights enforcement that could return to haunt them. Using its voice, its influence, and sometimes its Security Council veto, the Chinese government seeks to block United Nations measures to protect some of the world’s most persecuted people, turning its back on the Syrian civilians facing indiscriminate airstrikes by Russian and Syrian planes; the Rohingya Muslims ethnically cleansed from their homes by the Myanmar army’s murder, rape and arson; Yemeni civilians under bombardment and blockade by the Saudi-led coalition; and the Venezuelan people suffering economic devastation due to the corrupt mismanagement of Nicolas Maduro. In all of these cases, Beijing would rather leave the victims to their fate than generate a model of defending rights that might boomerang on its own repressive rule."

"Governments should deliberately counter China’s divide-and-conquer strategy for securing silence about its oppression. If every government alone faces a choice between seeking Chinese economic opportunities and speaking out against Chinese repression, many will opt for silence. But if governments band together to address China’s flouting of human rights, the power balance shifts. For example, if the Organization of Islamic Cooperation were to protest against the Chinese government’s repression of Turkic Muslims in Xinjiang, Beijing would need to retaliate against 57 countries. The Chinese economy cannot take on the whole world.

By the same token, companies and universities should draft and promote codes of conduct for dealing with China. Strong common standards would make it more difficult for Beijing to ostracize those who stand up for basic rights and freedoms. These standards would also make matters of principle a more important element of the institutions’ public images. Consumers would be better placed to insist that these institutions not succumb to Chinese censorship as the price to obtain Chinese business, and that they should never benefit from or contribute to Chinese abuses. Governments should tightly regulate the technology that empowers China’s mass surveillance and repression—and bolster privacy protections to check the spread of such surveillance systems."

 

Troller

Woodpecker
The Hong Kong security law is to applied globally. If you criticize CCP outside China and go to China you might be arrested.


U.S. warns citizens of heightened detention risks in China
 
The Hong Kong security law is to applied globally. If you criticize CCP outside China and go to China you might be arrested.


U.S. warns citizens of heightened detention risks in China
I'm toast! Lol I may never go back, considering this...

When I was in China, their immigration officers poured over my travel documents. "Your papers are not in order!" They would not tell me why. They had a female officer who spoke absolutely fluent English, and was gorgeous. You would have thought she was born and raised in America. She came over to tell me everything was fine, as I waited and waited. Fortunately, she didn't try to seduce me! Well, you never know... I've probably seen too many James Bond films.
 
The PLAN certainly are having their growing pains as they learn to build and maintain a large blue water navy. Earlier, they embarrassed themselves over carrier launched fighters, that went into the ocean, rather than the sky! But still, they have made amazing progress over the past twenty years, and over the next twenty they will most likely continue to astonish their rivals, as they aim to create a navy which can contain, and if necessary, defeat the United States, as they work on their goal of conquering Taiwan.
 
Of course, "our" ship in San Diego has been on fire for days now, too. Admittedly I'm speaking from ignorance, but it seems to me that a ship that can randomly catch on fire and then burn for days straight while docked in peacetime is probably not gonna do great while being bombed and shit.
A huge military warship, especially one for amphibious landings, is going to be loaded with all sorts of flammable materials. But it does seem like they could simply shut off all fuel and power to the afflicted areas, and then hose everything down with fire suppression chemicals, mixed with water. Years ago, I managed a lodge, and the chef completely lost control in the kitchen. A mini inferno ensued, but she pulled down the fire suppression lever, which caused the entire large room to be buried in fire suppression chemicals. It looked like she was taking a major league bubble bath! If not for this system being in place, we would have lost the main building. Oh, and she was a navy vet! Lol

What I don't get is that since WW2, American warships have been outfitted with damage control systems, to among other things, control and halt fires. In fact, one of the major reasons America defeated Japan, was that we had these systems, and they did not. And so our ships could take bad hits and keep going, while they burned and were often out of the fight. Perhaps the systems on this vessel simply did not work. And if so, the officer and senior enlisted who had the responsibility to make sure it worked, should get the boot from the navy. But then the ship was getting a major overhaul, so perhaps they had been purposely turned off.
 

Troller

Woodpecker

“The authorities in Beijing are so eager to silence critics of the regime that they are now video-calling dissidents in other countries to try and pressure them to toe the party line. And they’re doing it while sitting next to members of the dissidents’ families.”
 

budoslavic

Peacock
Gold Member

“The authorities in Beijing are so eager to silence critics of the regime that they are now video-calling dissidents in other countries to try and pressure them to toe the party line. And they’re doing it while sitting next to members of the dissidents’ families.”
 
"Would you like to see your grandpa spend several years doing hard labor in a camp for enemies of the state?" The PRC also does this when they want otherwise honest Chinese scientists and engineers living in the West, to steal our western technology, and then hand it over to them... A brutal but effective means of breaking the will of decent people.
 

the high

Woodpecker
There are massive floods going on in China , right now due to a once in a 100 years rainy season. The three gorges dam is in moderate danger of collapsing which if happens, is going to make the tsunami of 2004 look like a warmup. City of Wuhan is in danger of being flooded. Could affect pharmaceutical chains creating worldwide scarcity. There seems to be some sort of msm/alt media blackout about this whole thing but there are videos from China all over twitter.


More videos at this guys twitter account:

 
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Troller

Woodpecker
Communist China has to close its Consulate General in Houston in 72 hours.

Media reported that Consulate staff have been burning documents at the backyard of the Consulate on Tuesday.
Some analysts stated, that Chinese hacking operations would use some infrastructure related to that Consulate.

The US demand follows the indictment of two Chinese hackers.

(Houston Chronicle info)
 

Muscovite

Pigeon
Communist China has to close its Consulate General in Houston in 72 hours.

Media reported that Consulate staff have been burning documents at the backyard of the Consulate on Tuesday.
Some analysts stated, that Chinese hacking operations would use some infrastructure related to that Consulate.

The US demand follows the indictment of two Chinese hackers.

(Houston Chronicle info)
I'd seriously consider leaving China if I lived there as a foreigner, especially from an English speaking country. Things might be about to get much hotter than they already are.
 
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