Church The Orthodox Church

Kid Twist

Hummingbird
lonewolf1992 said:
You are partially right, but men DO NEED spirituality at least. And in first place it's been men who have written nearly all religious and spiritual books. Actually we strive for enlightmen and truth more than women do.

The demons are spiritual, yet they reject the truth.

We don't need spirit, it is part of us --- the word "need" is irrelevant. If we reject it, we deny ourselves and will never come to an understanding of truth.

As you rightly say, men are the teachers, so how much more do we need to approach the truth than anyone else???
 

MeymoonMan

Sparrow
Orthodox
Kid Twist said:
the word "need" is irrelevant. If we reject it, we deny ourselves and will never come to an understanding of truth.
Your point is very well made. I have a minor contention. I do think the word "need" is relevant for the reason I gave a few posts above. If we reject truth, we will behave ultimately self-destructively. For our own well-being as persons, we do need to embrace truth.
 

stugatz

Pelican
Someone clear something up for me. Are the Greek Catholics in communion with the Greek Orthodox, or are they just affectionate?

The Melkite church near me does NOT have the Filioque in the Nicene Creed, and has a liturgy that, to my knowledge, is almost the same as Greek Orthodox. The priest I added on Facebook (oh boy, time to start watching my language when I post) almost constantly "likes" Greek Orthodox church posts and shares their statuses.
 

MeymoonMan

Sparrow
Orthodox
Byzantine catholics are in full communion with the latins and not with the orthodox. I'm no expert on the latin church, but IIRC Rome allows eastern catholics to omit the filioque, so the Melkites do that.
 
Well , I didn't read all the comments in here as some quoted texts were too long but I can conclude something in a few words: " Orthodox Church is the the true heir of the lessons of Jesus Christ and the true form of Christianity.

Everything else from the catholics and especially to Protestants is a deviation.

I am Catholic Albanian myself but I am thinking to convert to Orthodoxy for obvious reasons .

I am also more intact with the teachings of the Old Testament rather than the New.

Albanians as apostolic Christians Since The times when Saint Paul came to Illyria are some of the first Orthodox people in the world.


Even now days Southern Albania is a treasure of the Orthodox Culture with endless 600-700-800 till 1400 years old monasteries and churches.

Anyways my point is that Orthodoxy is the purest form of Christianity.
 

Kid Twist

Hummingbird
The Gooz Boos said:
Byzantine catholics are in full communion with the latins and not with the orthodox. I'm no expert on the latin church, but IIRC Rome allows eastern catholics to omit the filioque, so the Melkites do that.

I always laugh when I consider that they are in "communion" with Rome. I know that "religion" can be complicated but eastern rite "catholics" never made any sense to me, and it's one of those things where it's actually not an argument about some retarded belief about God. The people are orthodox but insist they aren't only for strange political reasons. Odd considering that the RC church teaches things that are at best innovative and at worst false (or both) and they witness to this fact, ha.

Mirjan said:
Well , I didn't read all the comments in here as some quoted texts were too long but I can conclude something in a few words: " Orthodox Church is the the true heir of the lessons of Jesus Christ and the true form of Christianity.

Everything else from the catholics and especially to Protestants is a deviation.

I am Catholic Albanian myself but I am thinking to convert to Orthodoxy for obvious reasons .

I am also more intact with the teachings of the Old Testament rather than the New.

Albanians as apostolic Christians Since The times when Saint Paul came to Illyria are some of the first Orthodox people in the world.


Even now days Southern Albania is a treasure of the Orthodox Culture with endless 600-700-800 till 1400 years old monasteries and churches.

Anyways my point is that Orthodoxy is the purest form of Christianity.

Thanks for the conclusion, Mirjan. Glad you found home. Now for the hard work (-:
 

stugatz

Pelican
Kid Twist said:
The Gooz Boos said:
Byzantine catholics are in full communion with the latins and not with the orthodox. I'm no expert on the latin church, but IIRC Rome allows eastern catholics to omit the filioque, so the Melkites do that.

I always laugh when I consider that they are in "communion" with Rome. I know that "religion" can be complicated but eastern rite "catholics" never made any sense to me, and it's one of those things where it's actually not an argument about some retarded belief about God. The people are orthodox but insist they aren't only for strange political reasons. Odd considering that the RC church teaches things that are at best innovative and at worst false (or both) and they witness to this fact, ha.

I went to a Vespers service on Saturday night because I couldn't make Sunday services, interesting timing of this statement. Since there was no communion, the attendees in the pews happened to be Greek Orthodox and I asked a few questions afterward, mostly about Melkite and Greek Orthodox differences - and I was told, no, the services are exactly the same save mentions of the Pope. Kissing the icons, the sign of the cross being from right-to-left on the shoulders, orthos prayers, all of it is the same.

"Oh, by the way, the Eastern churches can be addicting, I think we'll see more of you."

That's what I'm pretty sure the guy said, but I swear I heard "jooooooooin uuuussss, joooooin ussssss" instead.
 

stugatz

Pelican
Well, don't want to resurrect a thread, but going to the nearest Greek Orthodox cathedral this Sunday. (Quite a variety near me, funnily enough- Serbian, Russian, Ukranian, and Coptic too.)

The priest told me when I e-mailed to please not partake in communion. I was very happy to see that.
 

Zona

Sparrow
stugatz said:
Well, don't want to resurrect a thread, but going to the nearest Greek Orthodox cathedral this Sunday. (Quite a variety near me, funnily enough- Serbian, Russian, Ukranian, and Coptic too.)

The priest told me when I e-mailed to please not partake in communion. I was very happy to see that.

How'd it go?

I'm a fellow RC who has been looking toward the east for awhile now (still learning about their beliefs), so I'm curious to hear about your experiences. I really need to check out the liturgy myself. Unfortunately the nearest Orthodox church is kind of far away, so I just keep putting it off.
 

stugatz

Pelican
I absolutely adored it - the fact that I had to get up early to go to a pretty distant neighborhood (and cross the bad part of town on the way there) almost added to it.

I was greeted in the vestibule by some very strict rules on the door to the worship area. No entering under any circumstances if the priest is facing you, if he's incensing the room, etc. I asked the usher to please let me know when I was allowed to enter (the Divine Liturgy was preceded by Matins and they flowed into each other). Service was about an hour and 45 minutes, about as long as a Tridentine Mass or the Divine Liturgy I went to in the Melkite church. Much, much more standing here than in either of those, and about 75% percent of the service was in incomprehensible Koine Greek. (Latin at least has enough cognates where I'm not hearing gibberish...no such luck here. The feeling of being illiterate is sort of a rush for me.)

Coffee and pastries (all Greek of course) was afterward and I spoke to the priest pretty extensively. He was happy to see me but not overjoyed, as he's got his major issues with Catholicism and didn't hesitate to tell me. (He probably wanted to make sure I was actually playing with the idea of becoming an Orthodox Christian, not just attending the mass to get some free baklava and watch them worship like I was some asshat tourist.)

I have noticed in the traditionalist Catholic cathedral I go to, despite it being conservative and having a solid clergy, there is some minor entryism. Some people have no problem with the Novus Ordo, love Pope Francis, and are generally liberal-minded, but like the Tridentine Rite because it's pretty and historic. I also somewhat regularly see people underdressed there and have seen the occasional piercing or woman wearing inappropriate makeup (blue nail polish, orange lipstick). None of this is extensive, but it's there.

Comparatively - this Orthodox church comes across as entryism-proof. A very large percentage of the congregants are fluent in Greek, the service is long and drones on and on, and there are multiple fasting days well after Easter is over - in fact, the whole month of December has just as many fasting days as the beginning of Lent. The congregants come across as very involved with each other. This is very, very intense in a way that surpasses the Latin Rite. (Add on top of this, too, the fact that yout average person doesn't know what an Orthodox Christian is.)

I said earlier in this thread that I viewed an ethnic enclave of a church like this negatively, because people would hesitate to join and numbers would stay down. I now see the benefits of it in the Current Year. With SJWs running around trying to use Christianity to further their goals, sometimes a community staying static-ish can stop this problem in its tracks. The priest complained about the other "liberal" Greek Orthodox church in the area, too, so I'm well aware that not even this part of the faith is immune.

Overall - I need some time to think about this since my whole extended family are serious Catholics - and I also had a similar reaction when I saw my first Latin service. I'll just bounce around between these three churches and see what happens.
 

stugatz

Pelican
fokker said:
^ Do you plan on learning Greek, Stugatz? That is, if you do plan on attending this Greek church.

I plan on staying a Roman Catholic for now, as I've barely been active at my traditionalist cathedral for three months and do like it just fine despite low-key entryism.

I'd make excuses to attend services at this Greek church more often if I had any real use for Greek. Outside of Greece (and the Greek population at this church) it's only great as a stepping stone to read the New Testament and books of the Old Testament. As far as I know, Greek is in its own bizarre category and isn't going to help me with any other languages (like Russian with Polish/Ukranian/Serbian/Slovak or Arabic with Hebrew). I like what I see quite a bit, though, and am probably going to attend a vespers service or one of the quick weekday services every so often. It's close enough to the Melkite liturgy.
 

stugatz

Pelican
Continuation to the post above, though - since I am likely going to be in the Levant attempting to learn Arabic in about a year and a half or so, though, Greek Orthodox isn't a bad liturgy to be familiar with, as it's scattered all across that area alongside the Melkite and Maronite Catholics.

I wouldn't be interested in wandering around Turkey nowadays, but the population used to be huge there too...
 

stugatz

Pelican
Just one final post, will probably update around Christmas or New Year's.

Did some searching, and my metro has a LOT of Orthodox parishes, and one more Eastern Rite Catholic I hadn't heard of. I'm looking at five more different kinds of Orthodox, one Eastern Rite, and one Orthodox Church of America. Before Christmas I intend to drop by all of them, if possible and just give brief commentary as an outsider.

I don't anticipate the post is going to be too long - how many differences between the Eastern Orthodox churches can there be, really? - but there may be some hidden surprises in Oriental. (I was told by an acquaintance to expect a three-and-a-half hour long service at least from the Copts, and those guys do nothing but fast half of the year.)

I can't leave the country right now (financial problems, working extra hours) so this will have to do for now to scratch that itch. Should be interesting.
 

fiasco360

Kingfisher
Orthodox
stugatz said:
Just one final post, will probably update around Christmas or New Year's.

Did some searching, and my metro has a LOT of Orthodox parishes, and one more Eastern Rite Catholic I hadn't heard of. I'm looking at five more different kinds of Orthodox, one Eastern Rite, and one Orthodox Church of America. Before Christmas I intend to drop by all of them, if possible and just give brief commentary as an outsider.

I don't anticipate the post is going to be too long - how many differences between the Eastern Orthodox churches can there be, really? - but there may be some hidden surprises in Oriental. (I was told by an acquaintance to expect a three-and-a-half hour long service at least from the Copts, and those guys do nothing but fast half of the year.)

I can't leave the country right now (financial problems, working extra hours) so this will have to do for now to scratch that itch. Should be interesting.

Not sure if you're in the LA area or not, but I'll gladly take you to one of my church services. The entire service is done in Aramaic. Depending upon the service it may take anywhere from 1.5-4 hours.
 

Zona

Sparrow
Thanks for the updates, stugatz.

Like you, I just started getting into traditionalist Catholicism not long ago, so I want to spend some time with that before making any moves. I will, however, make a point to visit some Eastern Orthodox churches in the near future just to test the waters to see how I like their services.

In any case, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the different churches you visit.
 
I've read this thread a couple of times as I am in the process of converting to Orthodoxy myself from Roman Catholicism. I spent 10 years as a Catholic and explored every liturgical trend it had to offer (liberal N.O. parishes, "reform of the reform" type parishes with more conservative N.O. liturgies, FSSP Latin Masses, and even one or two Sede Masses). I found all of them wanting and was never satisfied with the Western answers to many questions.

I just began my journey East about 2, 2.5 months ago and have been reading as much as I can, attending DL and a few vesper services, reading as much as I can, as well as meeting with a priest 1-2 times a month. I've had to restructure and retool my prayer life as well as how I approach prayer. Eastern prayer is more meditative, Western theology puts great emphasis on contemplation and the use of the imagination during prayer.
 

stugatz

Pelican
What's the deal with Orthros by the way - it precedes DL, and it's highly structured, so I assume it's Eastern Orthodox's version of the Rosary. Are there beads or prayer ropes to go with it?
 
stugatz said:
What's the deal with Orthros by the way - it precedes DL, and it's highly structured, so I assume it's Eastern Orthodox's version of the Rosary. Are there beads or prayer ropes to go with it?
It's a daily prayer/liturgical service. It is not like the Rosary, but more like the Liturgy of the Hours. Here is a pretty good description of Orthos/Matins:
The Sunday Orthros consists of Fixed and Variable parts. The former are read and/or sung each Sunday except for certain feast days, while the variable parts depend on the eight tones and the church calendar. For the latter, it is important to consult the annual Taxis issued by the Patriarchate.

The Fixed Parts consist of the following:

The beginning prayers, the Six Psalms, and the Petitions of Peace; the Ektene that follows the Apolytikia & Theotokia; the Evlogetaria; the petitions which follow the Evlogetaria; the “Having Beheld the Resurrection” and Psalm 50; the prayer “O God, save Your people ”; the Hymn and Verses of the “More Honorable Than the Cherubim”; the petitions; the Theotokion; and, the Doxology and final hymns.

The Variable Parts are:

The Resurrection Apolytikia & Theotokia; the Kathismata; the Hypakoai and Anavathmoi; the Kontakia and Oikoi; the Katavasiai; the Morning Gospels; the Exaposteilaria; the Ainoi; and the Doxastika.
https://www.goarch.org/-/sunday-orthros

Vespers is a more popular evening prayer service with a list of fixed prayers and Psalms.

The Orthodox version of the Rosary would be more like "The Rule of the Theotokos:
The Rule of the Theotokos
 
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