The Plane Crash Thread

porscheguy

Ostrich
The simple cure for frozen pitot tubes are heated pitot tubes. But only one US company made them at the time, and you don’t think the Brits and French would stoop so low as to use US components do you? They probably have a law specifically prohibiting it.
 

Beyond Borders

Peacock
Gold Member
Fascinating book I read recently was "Black Box Thinking." Compares the way that the airline industry thinks about and responds to failure to the way the health care industry does and the many ways that difference can and should be corrected (in health care) and used in other industries. The info on the health care industry is enough to give you very serious pause on trusting doctors.

Anyhow, it's biz-focused but no matter what you're into a solid exercise in thought on just how instrumental the way we handle failure can be to progress.
 

Abelard Lindsey

Woodpecker
Beyond Borders said:
Fascinating book I read recently was "Black Box Thinking." Compares the way that the airline industry thinks about and responds to failure to the way the health care industry does and the many ways that difference can and should be corrected (in health care) and used in other industries. The info on the health care industry is enough to give you very serious pause on trusting doctors.

Anyhow, it's biz-focused but no matter what you're into a solid exercise in thought on just how instrumental the way we handle failure can be to progress.

Airplane people (pilots, engineers, aircraft designers) do not have the arrogance that medical professionals have. That would account for the differences as detailed in this book.
 

Abelard Lindsey

Woodpecker
Paracelsus said:
TigerMandingo said:
What's the story on TWA flight 800? There are massive conspiracies and "cover-ups" surrounding that incident.

If you want a decent fictionalised version of the conspiracy theory, try Nelson DeMille's* book Night Fall in which he makes the case that TWA 800 was shot down by a SAM. Where that idea comes from is from a series of witness statements taken from around the time which said they saw a white light ascending toward the aircraft, and then a fireball. There are said to have been a large number of other contacts in the area at the time - military contacts, that is.

The NTSB report, when you get right down to it, advanced a likely explanation - short circuit providing a spark that caused the explosion - but did not rule out other explanations such as a missile shootdown. In particular it said the source of ignition energy could not be determined with certainty. Combine that with other interesting substances found on the backs of airline seats, and the NTSB advancing what the substances "probably" were, and, well...

But me, I'm far more interested in the crash of KAL 007. This one, at least, was certainly shot down by the Russians in 1983. The more interesting part is how heavily both the Russians (understandably) and the US (less understandably) tried to shove the whole incident under the rug. The NTSB was pushed not to investigate -- illegally, a US citizen had died, it was required by law to investigate -- and the State Department took over ... mainly because the NTSB has subpoena powers and the ICAO, the new-minted body which had only conducted 1 investigation in his history, did not.

Reagan wanted to put cruise missiles in West Germany, Pershing IIs to be exact. Couldn't get the support to do it. After KAL 007 went down, you couldn't fly the missiles fast enough to the future beneficiaries of cultural enrichment. The ICAO (as said, incompetent, and couldn't compel evidence out of the US, let alone Russia) blamed the shootdown on the fact KAL 007 wandered into Russian airspace due to its INS system playing up and the crew not noticing they'd drifted off course. Others aren't so sure. In particular, the number of warnings that the crew would've had to miss to not realise they were getting into Soviet space. It was one of the most heavily surveilled airspaces on the planet. There was a satellite above the Sea of Japan at the time of the incident and (no doubt completely coincidentally) the Challenger shuttle orbited 4 times over the sea on the day of the attack. Its mission payload had been shuffled at the last minute to include a classified package.

Also interestingly, the plane made a sharp turn as the Soviet fighters approached - something not consistent with the steady course the INS was taking them on. It wasn't matched by any sudden shock or alarm by the crew, they basically didn't wake up until they were launched at.

Seymour Hersh had his suspicions at the time. He details a lengthy history of US sorties into Soviet space for the purpose of testing Soviet defences. For a Korean airliner to wander into Soviet airspace for strange reasons was far from unprecedented; one had been shot down five years earlier. In short: KAL 007 may have been sent in as a deliberate provocation by the US.

Why KAL? Because it was a South Korean airline. Korean Air's survival basically depended on US government deals on routes and landing rights.


* And expect a good read. DeMille wrote a lot of good books, including The General's Daughter, which was later adapted into the Travolta film featuring a sort of proto-Jack Reacher.

I know the story behind this. There was a CIA ELINT plane that was shadowing KAL 007 as it flew through Soviet airspace. The captain of the KAL jumbo was also a known officer of the Korean Intelligence Service. The KIA had an agreement with CIA to spy on the Soviet Union by using KAL airliners to penetrate Soviet airspace to give cover to the CIA ELINT planes that were following in the shadow of the KAL planes. The Soviets had warn several times prior to KAL 007 to stop doing this.

It was with KAL 007 they decided to send a stronger message. The MIG pilot that was sent to intercept was given orders to target the ELINT plane, not the airliner. He took out KAL 007 by mistake, and received that commendation from the Soviet military brass because, at the time, they had not realized he had shot down the airliner by mistake.

All of this story came out in the KGB archives after the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991.

So, yes. The CIA was entirely at fault for this. The CIA has been a rogue agency for a very long time.
 

Arado

Pelican
Gold Member
Boeing is under the spotlight recently:

From CNBC

Boeing shares continued their slide Monday after explosive messages last week revealed a top pilot had concerns about a system on the 737 Max that was later implicated in two fatal crashes.

Several Wall Street analysts downgraded Boeing, fretting about the fallout from the crisis that has barred the manufacturer from delivering its best-selling planes that make up around 40% of its profit.

Boeing’s stock was down 3.8% Monday afternoon, shaving more than 80 points off the Dow Jones Industrial Average, but had pared losses from earlier in the session

The messages made public Friday included an exchange from a top Boeing pilot to a colleague in 2016 that expressed his worries about an aggressive flight control system on the Max, whose performance he called “egregious.” The pilot, who now works for Southwest, said in the exchange that he “unknowingly” lied to regulators. That same pilot months later told the FAA to remove the system, known as MCAS, from pilot procedures and training materials.
 

Beyond Borders

Peacock
Gold Member
Abelard Lindsey said:
Beyond Borders said:
Fascinating book I read recently was "Black Box Thinking." Compares the way that the airline industry thinks about and responds to failure to the way the health care industry does and the many ways that difference can and should be corrected (in health care) and used in other industries. The info on the health care industry is enough to give you very serious pause on trusting doctors.

Anyhow, it's biz-focused but no matter what you're into a solid exercise in thought on just how instrumental the way we handle failure can be to progress.

Airplane people (pilots, engineers, aircraft designers) do not have the arrogance that medical professionals have. That would account for the differences as detailed in this book.

Have you read it?
 

RIslander

 
Banned
Leonard D Neubache said:
Now I may be just be a simple country Hyper-Chicken but don't these confounded contraptions with these wind speed monitors prone to freezing have a simple backup by means of GPS combined with basic current data on expected wind speeds?

Heck. Even just a plain GPS woulda told 'em they weren't goin' fast enough to fly less they was headin' in against cyclonic winds.

GPS is only capable of giving you Ground Speed, or actual speed over the surface of the Earth. The airplane doesn't care about that. The instrumentation gives you Indicated Speed which decreases with altitude and is what is necessary to avoid an aerodynamic stall.

Large jets have 3-4 pitot tubes heated by independent systems. When a significant enough error between systems (5-10 knots) is detected an indication both audio and visual is given to the pilots.
 

RIslander

 
Banned
New Clown World outburst: Southwest pilots filming the on board lavatories.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/lawsuit-southwest-pilots-streamed-video-bathroom-cam-66553828

For fucks sake... this is the oldest pilot prank since the use of on board electronic tablets began. Before the flight one of the pilots films the other pilot from behind on his tablet pretending to take a piss. Then, at some point in the flight, he calls the flight attendant up so said videoed pilot can use the bathroom. He then rolls the video on the tablet and acts like its some sort of security camera and when she notices he clumsily tries to shut it off in a rush. There's no cameras in the bathroom this is a bullshit fake news story.

Other pranks:

Tell a rookie flight attendant to run down the aisle with a vomit sick sack to collect an "air sample" and turn it into the chief pilot.

Have them look into a telescoping cockpit ceiling light used for "astronomy based navigation" and then turn it on and tell them they found the sun.

Call back and tell them the toilet is overheating and to put ice in it. Extra points for testing the emergency audio alert system when on the horn with them.

When they complain about the temperature tell them to flick the hot/cold switch in the cockpit (used to turn the jumpseater's microphone on or off) so that they do it with future flight crews they say "wtf are you doing?".

One prank legend that didn't end well: Empty re position flight with 2 pilots and 1 FA. FA sleeping in the back... one pilot pretended to lock himself out and start banging on the door yelling "we're locked out!!" while the second pilot was up front flying. The poor FA had a panic attack and they had to divert the airplane and get her to the hospital. That one wasn't too smart.

Can't have fun at work anymore.
 

Bolly

 
Banned
Other Christian
Never heard this story before til today. In 1994 an Aeroflot flight 593 from Moscow to Hong Kong went down. Pretty sloppy event. The relief pilot brought his kids to work you could say for an adventure and had them in the cockpit. They put the autopilot while his daughter and son took turns sitting in the pilot seat to simulate they were flying. His 16 year old son applied enough pressure to the controls to partially disengage the autopilot. From there it started doing all this weird stuff and sounds like they weren't sure what was going on. The rest is history. The first officer over corrected and put the plane into stall and into a nosedive. They weren't able to recover. 75 dead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593

CVR


*edit-Twice now I've been in an airport waiting for a flight when some asshole bumps this thread. My turn now. Go ahead; sit back, relax and enjoy your flight :laugh:
 

911

Peacock
Gold Member
jennifer-1.jpg


RCAF Snowbirds plane crashes, co-pilot Jennifer Casey killed. It's weird that they'd have a passenger on an acrobatic patrol jet. Not sure about the circumstances of the crash, looked like a malfunction, both her and the pilot bailed and the plane dove on a suburban yard, barely missing a house.
 

SeaFM

Pelican
I saw a video on Twitter. Looks like they both ejected but one of the pilots landed on a house. My guess is it was her.
 

Galaxy_Traveler

Robin
Other Christian
Keep in mind that if it turns out that the woman in the cockpit had anything to do with the crash, they will keep it a secret.

I just looked up Jennifer Casey, there are red flags everywhere: She is a former journalist, then was a PR person for the Snowbirds. She poses in photos with all the pretentious aura of a feminist 'go girl' poster child.
 
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RWIsrael

Woodpecker
Jewish
Keep in mind that if it turns out that the woman in the cockpit had anything to do with the crash, they will keep it a secret.

I just looked up Jennifer Casey, there are red flags everywhere: She is a former journalist, then was a PR person for the Snowbirds. She poses in photos with all the pretentious aura of a feminist 'go girl' poster child.

But it's very clearly stated she is a PR person, so not being touted as a pilot. I doubt she was controlling the plane and would think some technical issue had more to do with the crash - old airframe, bad maintenance etc.

Video of the crash:

The ejection angle is obviously problematic so who knows what was going on there.
 

Galaxy_Traveler

Robin
Other Christian
But it's very clearly stated she is a PR person, so not being touted as a pilot.

I don't have the impression that this is stated clearly at all. Her official bio on the snowbirds website is very opaque, and it can be read in a way that she is indeed a pilot. Along with the fact that she is mentioned to be a spokeswoman, it says things like 'She spent the 2018 season with the CF-18 Demo Team, travelling North America and the United Kingdom with the NORAD 60 jet. Captain Casey joined the Canadian Forces Snowbirds in November 2018.'


This, along with her photos where she poses as a pilot, gives the impression that she is indeed flying.
I don't say that this is not a tragedy or that I know the whole story, and maybe this is just my impression, but the descriptions about her sound very vague and purposefully left open to interpretation, which raises questions, at least for me.
 

ed pluribus unum

Pelican
Protestant
Of course there has been no word at all on the status of the pilot other than "injured" but he's probably, you know, some jock exercising his male privilege.
It's not unusual for non-flying team members to ride along, usually crew chiefs and maintenance guys or photographers. I doubt she had anything to do with the crash directly, these are 60+ year old aircraft they're trying to operate.
Given their age, I don't think they can be equipped with zero-zero ejection seats so in the video it looks like the pilot was trying to gain as much altitude as possible before ejecting.
 

Garuda

Pelican
Protestant
Last Friday, a Pakistani International AirbusA320 went down in a Karachi neighborhood. Only two survived.

 

Easy_C

Peacock
Kind of related, Musk's spacecraft blew up.


I have zero evidence for this and it's a hunch, but I find it to be a rather interesting "coincidence" that after years of successful and largely incident free operation SpaceX suddenly has an extremely high profile, catastrophic explosion occur right after Musk very publicly attacks lockdowns and the COVID narrative.
 
I used to date a woman who had a job being a clerk for a military aerospace casualties archive. The owner had learned that the military only archived their pilot fatality records within the relative near term, and so he got his hands on their ancient microfiche and was working on digitizing the massive contents. People would pay him twenty dollars, to find out about how uncle Joe or Grandpa Rick died while serving their country.

The military fatality report would give a brief but thorough report on what happened. But it also had a graphic which was the outline of a human male, and in grisly detail, it would be adapted to show just what the accident did to the pilot's body. Many of them had heads and limbs which had been torn off!

I found that many of the crashes/deaths happened during take off, which is a vulnerable time for a pilot. And among the bombers, being trained during WW2, it was surprising how many simply got lost over a long North American test run, and either crashed in the middle of nowhere, due to running out of fuel, or got nailed by lightning from a thunder storm that overtook them.

What I found strange, was the number of British fighter pilot trainees who died, while training in Arizona, during the war. Their death rate seemed much higher than their American counterparts. I have the theory that England trained their best potential pilots at home, but sent their second rate candidates to the United States, for training.
 
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