The reason you dislike Islam

Viktor Zeegelaar

Pelican
Orthodox Inquirer
I think the mistake secular people make when criticizing Islam and other religions for their beliefs and atrocities is to project these onto the religion itself. The truth is, any evil stupidity comes from inside man, and the nature of his religion will reflect his state of mind. The fallacy is to presume that it would be a 'better' world without religion. This is a too optimistic view of man. The West is by now freed from religion and is turning more irrational by the day. Meanwhile, the Muslim world looks sane in comparison. Without religion, man invents his own dogmas which are even worse. There is no perfect state in this world, so the problem seems to lie in ideology itself. Therefore, I've learnt not to dislike Islam as much as disdain utopianism.
Amen, well said. As Dostojevski said ''Without God anything goes''. Remove God and you'll remove any foundation of society. We see where that's heading now by design of our elites.
 

nagareboshi

Woodpecker
Personally what I miss in Islam is the love side. I see God as love and judgment. Like a good house father: loving yet disciplining. In my perspective Islam is too much focused on the disciplining side without too much forgiveness.

There's much commentary on love in medieval Islamic theology which was wiped away (unfairly) with modern Salafi revisionists, who are responsible for the wrath type you see more frequently these days
 

Pantheon

Sparrow
Orthodox
There's much commentary on love in medieval Islamic theology which was wiped away (unfairly) with modern Salafi revisionists, who are responsible for the wrath type you see more frequently these days

That's too bad, love is heavily emphasized in Islamic mysticism (Sufism), but they have not always been looked at with gentle eyes by more dogmatic believers. You see the same tendency in Christianity, with the more rigid Protestants wanting to break up with the 'sensuality' of Catholicism and return to the roots. I would however maintain that Sufism is an integral part of Islam, and cannot be understood without it (unlike Protestantism which was a reaction to the Church).

I'm not sure how much Christian love is currently helping the west, as it has been reduced to pure sentimentality. Whatever one might opinionate about Islam it remains based. Spiritual love has nothing to do with emotions anyway, although it might incite and is often tied to strong emotion. Tbh, true love probably contains equal measures of affection (towards the good and beautiful) and repulsion (towards the wicked). It is both God's mercy and wrath. Hence, why fear of God is as important as love of God.

This is why Muslims never question God when bad things happen. Instead, they fear him, unlike the west which stopped believing in him since the world seemed "unfair".
 
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Pantheon

Sparrow
Orthodox
Personally what I miss in Islam is the love side. I see God as love and judgment. Like a good house father: loving yet disciplining. In my perspective Islam is too much focused on the disciplining side without too much forgiveness.

Muslims say that God is forgiving and merciful, but I'm not sure that forgiveness is a commandment for believers. Muslims are indeed known for not being forgiving and very far-sighted. For example, it's common in the Muslim world that close family members who have a minor conflict don't speak with each other for years. I know this because I have one parent from a Muslim Balkan culture.

Westerners are far more forgiving in that sense, but even in the modern west, I find forgiveness is a lacking theme. There is a lot of focus on "justice" without forgiveness.

Moreover, I often see a lot of pride in Muslims. This could be a regional/cultural thing from the Middle-East/North-Africa too.

I think it's both a cultural and religious thing. Muslims tend to lack self-distance and take everything personally, sort of in the same way super-correct Protestants in the west lack any humor or playfulness. But generally, Christians have far more self-distance and don't take satire and criticism towards Christianity personally. To be fair, Muslims in the west have good reasons to be defensive since they are constantly under pressure by secular culture. Secularism is really appalling and useless in bringing about harmony between people.

That being said I do have shifted my perspective from being 110% anti-islam (and religion in general...) and hardcore secularist to a Godly worldview, although I'm discovering a lot about theology etc. at the moment. I do respect Muslims now more than secular people, for at least Muslims have strong traditional values. Theological issues aside, there are many commonalities from a cultural/traditional standpoint between Christianity and Islam. So we must not let the elite make us fight each other, but see how we can form a block against the elite without disregarding our genuine values and beliefs as Christians. From a Muslim perspective Islam is the truth of course and I respect that. Let God guide us all to the truth.

Same here, this is an important realization to make. It's easy to fall into the secular trap of demonizing Islam and thereby unintentionally undermining religion and tradition itself. Secularism is and was always the problem. I'm pretty positive that there lies a common history of mutual understanding between European and Islamic civilization, since both are historically interlinked and geographically proximal, sharing a common intellectual tradition. You could counter by pointing to the wars between them but those are political rather than religious matters. War is a natural human condition.
 
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Viktor Zeegelaar

Pelican
Orthodox Inquirer
Good discussion here. I'm happy to see that many since they have shifted from secularism to Christianity have found more respect/understanding for Islam.

A thing that would bother me a lot in the past was the head scarf. Now however I walk on the street and am really bothered by all the yogapants and so on I see. I don't want to see bums and private area's all the time but I feel I'm forced to by society. That begs the question are head scarfs and the combined modest dressing bad? I'd rather see a Muslim woman decently dressed with a head scarf walking around now than a yogapants titty dropping secular lost female. I feel sorry for her and that she is misled but it's really disturbing to me increasingly... What's your view?
 

bk19xsa

Robin
Good discussion here. I'm happy to see that many since they have shifted from secularism to Christianity have found more respect/understanding for Islam.

A thing that would bother me a lot in the past was the head scarf. Now however I walk on the street and am really bothered by all the yogapants and so on I see. I don't want to see bums and private area's all the time but I feel I'm forced to by society. That begs the question are head scarfs and the combined modest dressing bad? I'd rather see a Muslim woman decently dressed with a head scarf walking around now than a yogapants titty dropping secular lost female. I feel sorry for her and that she is misled but it's really disturbing to me increasingly... What's your view?
Not just yoga pants but cleavage as well. It's now a very normal thing to display it in the West, even including the workplace. Women obnoxiously show it and lots of White and Hispanic Catholic girls wear the cross over their plunging necklines. It is not only distracting but also disrespectful.
 

Pantheon

Sparrow
Orthodox
Good discussion here. I'm happy to see that many since they have shifted from secularism to Christianity have found more respect/understanding for Islam.

A thing that would bother me a lot in the past was the head scarf. Now however I walk on the street and am really bothered by all the yogapants and so on I see. I don't want to see bums and private area's all the time but I feel I'm forced to by society. That begs the question are head scarfs and the combined modest dressing bad? I'd rather see a Muslim woman decently dressed with a head scarf walking around now than a yogapants titty dropping secular lost female. I feel sorry for her and that she is misled but it's really disturbing to me increasingly... What's your view?

As a pre-Christian I remember defending secular values and viewing the headscarf as oppressive. Well, as long as the woman wills it, there is no oppression. Submission to God is not oppression. Some of that stuff that went on in France and Turkey (a republic built on French Jacobine values) where they banned veiled girls from school is just modern clown-world at its best.

I used to go to Catholic church and there were women in tight jeans standing in front of me. Let's say it was hard to focus on God. In the west women use their sexuality as a means to obtain status and power over the minds of men. In the Orthodox Church, women veil themselves which I find very gracious and I have seen some Russian women who have been completely covered like Muslim women. Another point of commonality between Orthodoxy and Islam.
 
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In the Orthodox Church, women veil themselves which I find very gracious and I have seen some Russian women who have been completely covered like Muslim women. Another point of commonality between Orthodoxy and Islam.
The way that women veil themselves in Christianity is completely different from Islam. There is no comparison. Christian women it is a sacred veil, covering something that is sacred, not shameful or lustful.
This can explain it better than I can:
 

Pantheon

Sparrow
Orthodox
The way that women veil themselves in Christianity is completely different from Islam. There is no comparison. Christian women it is a sacred veil, covering something that is sacred, not shameful or lustful.
This can explain it better than I can:

I agree that the symbolic meaning is different. The Christian veil is dignifying yourself before God, and the Muslim veil is a covering yourself against men. The difference between Christianity and Islam is that Christianity outlines different sins and tells you the moral consequences whereas Islam is about strict practical prohibitions which doesn't take into account the moral agency of the individual. Islam has lesser room for individual autonomy.

I would not go as far as to the defend the fundamentalist Islamic idea that all women should be completely covered. I'm not against beauty in the world and definitely think women in a civilized society should be able to show their beauty and wear sexy clothes as long as society does not become over-sexualized and vulgar. The Muslim world might have a similar problem but to the other direction - the feminine is not given any public outlet.
 
I agree that the symbolic meaning is different. The Christian veil is dignifying yourself before God, and the Muslim veil is a covering yourself against men. The difference between Christianity and Islam is that Christianity outlines different sins and tells you the moral consequences whereas Islam is about strict practical prohibitions which doesn't take into account the moral agency of the individual.
Yes Islam's prohibitions are more 'talmudic', and probably more about keeping men's sexual appetites down- though some think it leads to rampant homosexual and pedo behavior in the that part of the world - though the pedo stuff goes back to pagan era - and has always been a 'disease' that has slowly drifted west - the Greeks were at first repulsed by it then Herodotus says 'they learned to lie with boys' . Apparently some talmudic reasoning even made its way to Italy where it was 'not a sin' to have sex with prepubescent boy vs having sex with a virgin woman.

Mary, a woman, bore the son of God. She carried God in her womb. The female form cannot be abhorrent or just 'lustful' in Christianity - it is a sacred tabernacle. She is the highest and purest human being - above angels according to theology of the church. When women follow her ideals or men contemplate her, lust is impossible; and we see her depicted as a woman, as beautiful as feminine.

I'm not against beauty in the world and definitely think women in a civilized society should be able to show their beauty and wear sexy clothes as long as society does not become over-sexualized and vulgar.
We've all probably seen the muslim woman in a headscarf and 'sexy' high heel shoes and super tight jeans - it is at the same time covering the female form and degrading and trashy. There is nothing appealing about it.

On the other hand, modestly dressed women can radiate a sacred aura while still very much emphasizing their female form.

I agree that you can reveal a woman's form, emphasize it and still remain modest. The burkha on the other hand is simply degrading to the idea of womanhood.
 

Pantheon

Sparrow
Orthodox
Yes Islam's prohibitions are more 'talmudic', and probably more about keeping men's sexual appetites down-

Yes although Islam is more sexually restrictive for women and less so for men. Men can have many wives and are allowed to have sex with non-Muslim women if I'm not mistaken (hence why Sultans kept harems with Christian women). Islam in a way encourages men to spread their sword and seed as far and wide as possible (in contrast to Christianity which encourages self-restraint on all levels) which is why it's the most fertile and growing religion in the world. I think polygamy might have historically created some problems in the Muslim world though since it prevents an egalitarian sexual market, leading to more sexual suppression and patterns of inbreeding. Monogamy and individualism has led to more sexual mobility among Europeans, thus allowed them to 'outbreed' and extend kinship universally outside family bloodlines. Islam on the other hand has always been about conquest and assimilation of "outgroups", making it an expansive and sexually potent force.
 
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Don't take this personally, but when I read things like "From a Muslim perspective Islam is the truth of course and I respect that. Let God guide us all to the truth." and "This is why Muslims never question God when bad things happen. Instead, they fear him, unlike the west which stopped believing in him since the world seemed "unfair"....

Denying God, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Incarnation, Crucifixion and Resurrection is as evil and insane as transgenderism. Like mormonism and buddhism, islam is a spiritual disease caused by demons.
Islam leads to hell, therefore there is nothing good about it. "But they dislike trannies and mini-skirts..." (although there are hadiths about muhammad, that bastard of the devil, cross-dressing) - stalinists were traditional compared to the insanity we see today - they still burn in hell.

There is only one true religion: Christianity. Everything else is a lie invented by satan.
There is only one God, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

It makes me sick to hear Christians saying anything nice about islam or buddhism or what not, because these cults lead to hell - you are commanded to hate them; don't hate the possessed, who believe in such satanic rubbish, but hate the cults.

Muslims do not fear God, they mock God by worshipping a false god, an invention of the devil.
I hate the devil and all of his works, which there are islam, mormonism, hinduism, marxism, buddhism, transgenderism et cetera
God won't be mocked. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Worshipping a false god as muslims, mormons and so on do, is the most severe mockery of God. The Apostle John says, that such devil-worshippers are not allowed to step a foot into our households.

There is no islamic god, there is no mormon god, there are no hindu gods - these gods are satan and his demons, and muslims, mormons and hindus (etc) pray to satan. It does not get more evil than that.
 
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the seeming illogicality of the doctrine: how can God be one and indivisible, but also be three and divisible at the same time?

Easy. The Persons do not divide God, they are not "parts" of God because each is equally God.

Sitting Bull, that's a good way of looking at the Trinity. I've heard a similar, simple explanation: I myself can be a father, son, brother, and various other persons, while still being only one person, myself. The same is true of God. Very simple.
 
“He (Mohammed) seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh urges us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected; he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity.”—St. Thomas Aquinas

Islam’s shocking paradise (i.e. “Jannah”) of sex, sin, and sensuality:
The Moslem concept of Heaven sounds like something a PUA would have dreamt up!
 
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Don't take this personally, but when I read things like "From a Muslim perspective Islam is the truth of course and I respect that. Let God guide us all to the truth." and "This is why Muslims never question God when bad things happen. Instead, they fear him, unlike the west which stopped believing in him since the world seemed "unfair"....

Denying God, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the Incarnation, Crucifixion and Resurrection is as evil and insane as transgenderism. Like mormonism and buddhism, islam is a spiritual disease caused by demons.
Islam leads to hell, therefore there is nothing good about it. "But they dislike trannies and mini-skirts..." (although there are hadiths about muhammad, that bastard of the devil, cross-dressing) - stalinists were traditional compared to the insanity we see today - they still burn in hell.

There is only one true religion: Christianity. Everything else is a lie invented by satan.
There is only one God, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

It makes me sick to hear Christians saying anything nice about islam or buddhism or what not, because these cults lead to hell - you are commanded to hate them; don't hate the possessed, who believe in such satanic rubbish, but hate the cults.

Muslims do not fear God, they mock God by worshipping a false god, an invention of the devil.
I hate the devil and all of his works, which there are islam, mormonism, hinduism, marxism, buddhism, transgenderism et cetera
God won't be mocked. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Worshipping a false god as muslims, mormons and so on do, is the most severe mockery of God. The Apostle John says, that such devil-worshippers are not allowed to step a foot into our households.

There is no islamic god, there is no mormon god, there are no hindu gods - these gods are satan and his demons, and muslims, mormons and hindus (etc) pray to satan. It does not get more evil than that.
Talked to many people of the religions you quoted.
They all claimed the same as you do with some exceptions of having multi-gods and thus being a tad more tolerant about it (east asia).
These two religions can coexist peacefully (Tanzania).

Hate is per se a very problematic emotion if left unchecked. And as someone living in a Muslim country, I am amazed about the calm, peace and stability many of these places have if left alone by foreign interests.
Maybe in the past, where people where actually believing in Christianity, it was a better life.

For me it is not important what people believe as long as they believe in some "form" of God. Otherwise it creates hate, division and hence war if someone claims to know it all.
 
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