The Soccer Thread

Barron

Ostrich
Gold Member
Anybody notice the all female officiating staff for the UEFA SuperCup?

The lead official made a bad call and gave Chelsea an undeserved penalty. Hilariously, the Liverpool players didn't dare get in her face or protest like they would if the ref was a man. This is obviously the beginning of placing more female officials in men's sports (step 1 towards ruining them), they'll soon be able to accuse male players of harassment just for giving female officials a dirty look for bad decisions. Que the fines, suspensions, etc.

Football Clown World has arrived.
 
rudebwoy said:
America didn't quality for the last World Cup, despite all the money they are putting towards their team and league.

The skill level, speed and athleticism in the European and South American leagues is on another level.
American top talent goes simply to different sports. A lot of top soccer players have multiple talents and could be playing at different sports as well - baseball, tennis, golf, some even NFL running backs, NHL even. Several elite soccer players reported that they had the option of going pro at a different sport in their teens.

Most other countries in the world - their absolute main talent goes only to soccer and almost nowhere else. If the US did that, then they would have a fantastic team - probably in the top 3 constantly. The raw athletic power there is huge, but the talented guys are doing something else.
 

rudebwoy

Peacock
Gold Member
Simeon_Strangelight said:
rudebwoy said:
America didn't quality for the last World Cup, despite all the money they are putting towards their team and league.

The skill level, speed and athleticism in the European and South American leagues is on another level.
American top talent goes simply to different sports. A lot of top soccer players have multiple talents and could be playing at different sports as well - baseball, tennis, golf, some even NFL running backs, NHL even. Several elite soccer players reported that they had the option of going pro at a different sport in their teens.

Most other countries in the world - their absolute main talent goes only to soccer and almost nowhere else. If the US did that, then they would have a fantastic team - probably in the top 3 constantly. The raw athletic power there is huge, but the talented guys are doing something else.
I played soccer at a high level, pro farm team.

Top soccer players cannot play those sports you listed. NFL, NHL and baseball, have you seen the size of those guys, do you understand the upper body strength that is needed for those sports.

The raw athletic power maybe huge in America, but despite a massive population they were unable to make the last World Cup.
Funny how small nations like Bosnia and Panama had the "raw" talent to make the tournament.

As Ibrahimovic stated, he is a Ferrari playing against Fiat's in the MLS.

He is almost 40, which should show you the talent level in the league.
 

911

Peacock
Gold Member
SS doesn't understand soccer, the USMNT sucks because US soccer culture is very weak. It's a culture mired with playdates, suburban van soccer moms, 5 year olds playing in uniforms with referees, NCAA weird rules etc. The US and Canada suck at soccer for the same reasons Europe sucks at basketball, the sport's culture is weak.

Conversely, the US excels at basketball for the same reasons, the sport's culture is superior, with a combination of loose and intense playground culture and high level structured leagues from the HS level on to the NCAA.

The common misconception that Americans have about soccer is that they underperform because their "athletes" aren't into soccer. If you look at the all-time soccer greats, nearly all of them were not particularly gifted in terms of raw atheltics. Guys like Platini, Cruijff, Beckenbauer, Zico, Sócrates, Maradona, Maldini, Ronaldinho were gods on the field, completely untouchable dominating the game due to their exceptional technical skills, intelligence and feel for the game, yet they weren't speed freaks or athletic monsters.

Small countries with superior soccer cultures regularly outperform huge countries with weak soccer cultures. Compare for instance Uruguay to Mexico. Soccer is #1 in both countries, Mexico is nearly 40 times the population, but they have have never amounted to anything while Uruguay, with the population of Minneapolis-St Paul, has won the World Cup twice and made the final 4 twice. Superior soccer culture.

Same with Holland, which has a superior soccer culture, and Russia/USSR, which has over 10 times the population and nowhere near the results of Holland on the big stage. The countries that dominate world soccer are those with superior soccer cultures and large populations, like Germany, Brazil, Italy and France. Smaller contries with great soccer cultures like Holland, Belgium, Uruguay or the Yugoslavias occasionally challenge the bigger countries when a generation of talented players emerges.
 

bk19xsa

Robin
Football(soccer) has some art to it rather than just pure physicality. That is what makes it so special. With enough intelligence and technical skills, an alright physical team can defeat a very physically imposing team. Great teams have almost purely relied on innovative technique, entertaing strategy and artistic football to dominate the game such as Dutch 70s, Brazil 82 or Guardiola's Barcelona.

Soccer culture in US completely lacks that artistic, fun vibe. It is played more like basketball; rushed, fast and tumultous. Even just a normal pick up game in US soccer will have rest of your teammates always shouting 'if you need me', 'drop', 'turn, 'on you' and bla bla as if everyone is on edge. It's highly infuriating. There is no sense of silent coordination; Like a dance, where you are watching the guy with the ball, thinking his next move, making space and accordingly receiving that pass.

Additionally, there is no desire either to play soccer beautifully or to play exiliratingly. Watching varsity soccer itself is cringeworthy as to how boring and soulless it is. Soccer is meant to be enjoyed and expressed.

Lastly, no one keeps scores or plays to an outcome in most pick up games in the US, which is ridiculous. Play anywhere else in the world and everyone wants to play a match, which makes it more fun and thrilling.
 

rudebwoy

Peacock
Gold Member
^What you describe is called the "Beautiful Game".

Barcelona tik-tak football was created by Cryuff, who played for Holland in the 70s.
 
rudebwoy said:
Simeon_Strangelight said:
rudebwoy said:
America didn't quality for the last World Cup, despite all the money they are putting towards their team and league.

The skill level, speed and athleticism in the European and South American leagues is on another level.
American top talent goes simply to different sports. A lot of top soccer players have multiple talents and could be playing at different sports as well - baseball, tennis, golf, some even NFL running backs, NHL even. Several elite soccer players reported that they had the option of going pro at a different sport in their teens.

Most other countries in the world - their absolute main talent goes only to soccer and almost nowhere else. If the US did that, then they would have a fantastic team - probably in the top 3 constantly. The raw athletic power there is huge, but the talented guys are doing something else.
I played soccer at a high level, pro farm team.

Top soccer players cannot play those sports you listed. NFL, NHL and baseball, have you seen the size of those guys, do you understand the upper body strength that is needed for those sports.

The raw athletic power maybe huge in America, but despite a massive population they were unable to make the last World Cup.
Funny how small nations like Bosnia and Panama had the "raw" talent to make the tournament.

As Ibrahimovic stated, he is a Ferrari playing against Fiat's in the MLS.

He is almost 40, which should show you the talent level in the league.
What I meant that many have an enormous talent with the ball. But obviously that means that the guys would have to play 2 sports quite competitively since childhood and hardly any plays soccer in the US. The best guys are going to do something else.

I remember Boris Becker having both soccer as well as tennis on his roster aged 13. Other American top tennis players said that they had to decide at age 15 whether to go to tennis or baseball because they were good enough to go pro at both.

The MLS league is a joke of course, but that is based on popularity in the US. But sure - it's all coulda-woulda arguments, but I stand by it. The US soccer team without the other far more popular sports would be world-class. Plenty of baseball players in the US likely would be playing soccer as well.

But I doubt that any of the top 200 talented men in the US were thinking of soccer when picking their sport in childhood. And yes - the lack of good local teams is also a huge factor in the US.
 

armenia4ever

Kingfisher
Zlatan though is something special. The guy was dominating at PSG in his early 30s and was scoring quite a few goals for Manchester United at what, 36 or 37 years of age?

Granted MLS still is way too much of a retirement league, but getting better.
 

Barron

Ostrich
Gold Member
Clown world continues:
https://www.fifa.com/the-best-fifa-football-awards/puskas-award/

3 of the 10 nominees for the FIFA puskas award (best goal of the year) are women.
That's right. Women are right up there with Lionel Messi and Zlatan, because feels.

Goals like this in female competition (funny comments)

Are now up there in skill with goals like this in male competition

Notice the fake/jacked up crowd reaction volume in the first video versus the muted crowd volume in Messi's video? He scored his during an away match against Real Betis and the entire rival stadium applauded him and chanted his name for that goal. Thanks (((FIFA)))
 
rudebwoy said:
Simeon_Strangelight said:
rudebwoy said:
America didn't quality for the last World Cup, despite all the money they are putting towards their team and league.

The skill level, speed and athleticism in the European and South American leagues is on another level.
American top talent goes simply to different sports. A lot of top soccer players have multiple talents and could be playing at different sports as well - baseball, tennis, golf, some even NFL running backs, NHL even. Several elite soccer players reported that they had the option of going pro at a different sport in their teens.

Most other countries in the world - their absolute main talent goes only to soccer and almost nowhere else. If the US did that, then they would have a fantastic team - probably in the top 3 constantly. The raw athletic power there is huge, but the talented guys are doing something else.
I played soccer at a high level, pro farm team.

Top soccer players cannot play those sports you listed. NFL, NHL and baseball, have you seen the size of those guys, do you understand the upper body strength that is needed for those sports.

The raw athletic power maybe huge in America, but despite a massive population they were unable to make the last World Cup.
Funny how small nations like Bosnia and Panama had the "raw" talent to make the tournament.

As Ibrahimovic stated, he is a Ferrari playing against Fiat's in the MLS.

He is almost 40, which should show you the talent level in the league.
Rudebwoy - one little story that demonstrated this "ball-talent" was when I played tennis against a buddy who had previously been on a pro-soccer track in his Western European country. When he was 14 he was asked whether he wanted to enter their pro-preparation team, he was already offered some sort of contract, but he decided against it as 14yo boys sometimes make emotional decisions. No idea whether he regrets that now.

Either way - the difference between his raw talent and mine became clear when we played tennis. He played tennis for the first time while I came off years of playing with a full grasp of the entire gamut of techniques. After showing him the basics we played for 2 hours and quickly he began to hit super-effective fast balls back at me as if he was playing for years. He did not have the topspin techniques down, but his talent was simply so far above mine and above the average player that he would likely outclass everyone in the club within weeks.

That is the power of this raw talent. Obviously in soccer you need a certain athleticism, speed, even lower leg musculature - but the raw talent that can be transferred elsewhere is one big advantage that all high-tier pros have.

For example - a guy like Tiger Woods may have been able to become a soccer or tennis pro if he had started out early, though golf pays obviously better than both anyway.
 

Barron

Ostrich
Gold Member
Simeon_Strangelight said:
rudebwoy said:
Simeon_Strangelight said:
rudebwoy said:
America didn't quality for the last World Cup, despite all the money they are putting towards their team and league.

The skill level, speed and athleticism in the European and South American leagues is on another level.
American top talent goes simply to different sports. A lot of top soccer players have multiple talents and could be playing at different sports as well - baseball, tennis, golf, some even NFL running backs, NHL even. Several elite soccer players reported that they had the option of going pro at a different sport in their teens.

Most other countries in the world - their absolute main talent goes only to soccer and almost nowhere else. If the US did that, then they would have a fantastic team - probably in the top 3 constantly. The raw athletic power there is huge, but the talented guys are doing something else.
I played soccer at a high level, pro farm team.

Top soccer players cannot play those sports you listed. NFL, NHL and baseball, have you seen the size of those guys, do you understand the upper body strength that is needed for those sports.

The raw athletic power maybe huge in America, but despite a massive population they were unable to make the last World Cup.
Funny how small nations like Bosnia and Panama had the "raw" talent to make the tournament.

As Ibrahimovic stated, he is a Ferrari playing against Fiat's in the MLS.

He is almost 40, which should show you the talent level in the league.
Rudebwoy - one little story that demonstrated this "ball-talent" was when I played tennis against a buddy who had previously been on a pro-soccer track in his Western European country. When he was 14 he was asked whether he wanted to enter their pro-preparation team, he was already offered some sort of contract, but he decided against it as 14yo boys sometimes make emotional decisions. No idea whether he regrets that now.

Either way - the difference between his raw talent and mine became clear when we played tennis. He played tennis for the first time while I came off years of playing with a full grasp of the entire gamut of techniques. After showing him the basics we played for 2 hours and quickly he began to hit super-effective fast balls back at me as if he was playing for years. He did not have the topspin techniques down, but his talent was simply so far above mine and above the average player that he would likely outclass everyone in the club within weeks.

That is the power of this raw talent. Obviously in soccer you need a certain athleticism, speed, even lower leg musculature - but the raw talent that can be transferred elsewhere is one big advantage that all high-tier pros have.

For example - a guy like Tiger Woods may have been able to become a soccer or tennis pro if he had started out early, though golf pays obviously better than both anyway.
The thing that differentiates soccer from other sports like baseball, basketball, football, hockey, tennis, etc., happens to be why Americans neither care much for it nor happen to be any good at it. Far more than any other sport, soccer demands that the individual submit himself to the collective.

Americans, with their radical individualism and love of the underdog, simply do not appreciate a group of men acting and moving as one like they do a single player being in the spotlight.

It's almost like a capitalism vs communism mentality as soccer demands far more submission to the group, however it's not true 100% all of the time.
In soccer, part of being a great player is knowing when to break out of the group and play as an individual and when not to (takes a high degree of awareness). Doing so is neither helpful nor appropriate most of the time as the build-up to most goals is usually due to combination passing and exploiting open spaces in a team's defense..
When it is necessary to play as an individual, one could even make the argument that knowing when to do so, and doing it, is part of playing as a team.

Americans have no eye or taste for this. It's not a bad thing, it's just why soccer has never and will never gain serious traction in the US.
 

Teedub

Crow
Gold Member
I understand what you're trying to say, but it's a very reductive argument. Firstly, I don't think Americans love an underdog, they love winners. British people love an underdog, a plucky trier... someone who is elite, but doesn't quite make it to the very top echelon. It's why they love Ricky Hatton but 'hate' Lewis Hamilton.

Secondly, there's way more debate about who the best soccer player is in soccer-loving countries than there are debates about who the best team is. There are endless debates (I've had them in this very thread) about who the best individual player of all time is. Pele, Maradona, the two Ronaldos, Messi etc.

Americans love winning more than anything, that's why they don't like soccer. There's even a name for it: American Exceptionalism. If DC United could comfortably beat Juventus, or LA Galaxy could obliterate Barcelona, many, many more Americans would be soccer fans.
 

Rocha

Ostrich
Gold Member
Simeon_Strangelight said:
rudebwoy said:
Simeon_Strangelight said:
rudebwoy said:
America didn't quality for the last World Cup, despite all the money they are putting towards their team and league.

The skill level, speed and athleticism in the European and South American leagues is on another level.
American top talent goes simply to different sports. A lot of top soccer players have multiple talents and could be playing at different sports as well - baseball, tennis, golf, some even NFL running backs, NHL even. Several elite soccer players reported that they had the option of going pro at a different sport in their teens.

Most other countries in the world - their absolute main talent goes only to soccer and almost nowhere else. If the US did that, then they would have a fantastic team - probably in the top 3 constantly. The raw athletic power there is huge, but the talented guys are doing something else.
I played soccer at a high level, pro farm team.

Top soccer players cannot play those sports you listed. NFL, NHL and baseball, have you seen the size of those guys, do you understand the upper body strength that is needed for those sports.

The raw athletic power maybe huge in America, but despite a massive population they were unable to make the last World Cup.
Funny how small nations like Bosnia and Panama had the "raw" talent to make the tournament.

As Ibrahimovic stated, he is a Ferrari playing against Fiat's in the MLS.

He is almost 40, which should show you the talent level in the league.
Rudebwoy - one little story that demonstrated this "ball-talent" was when I played tennis against a buddy who had previously been on a pro-soccer track in his Western European country. When he was 14 he was asked whether he wanted to enter their pro-preparation team, he was already offered some sort of contract, but he decided against it as 14yo boys sometimes make emotional decisions. No idea whether he regrets that now.

Either way - the difference between his raw talent and mine became clear when we played tennis. He played tennis for the first time while I came off years of playing with a full grasp of the entire gamut of techniques. After showing him the basics we played for 2 hours and quickly he began to hit super-effective fast balls back at me as if he was playing for years. He did not have the topspin techniques down, but his talent was simply so far above mine and above the average player that he would likely outclass everyone in the club within weeks.

That is the power of this raw talent. Obviously in soccer you need a certain athleticism, speed, even lower leg musculature - but the raw talent that can be transferred elsewhere is one big advantage that all high-tier pros have.

For example - a guy like Tiger Woods may have been able to become a soccer or tennis pro if he had started out early, though golf pays obviously better than both anyway.
From this post I can see you never played football in your life. There's is no sense in this. Usain Bolt tried football and he sucks at it...not even in an amateur level, despite being the fastest human being.
 
< No - plenty of 100m top runners have attempted to play American football as well as soccer. Their technical skill was not sufficient. Some were unable even to capture the ball despite American Football requireing less technical skill.

It's a combination factor - technical skills that can be transferred to different sports, then of course you require speed and stamina. Then depending on the sport you need more mental skills - golf as well as tennis being such sports. Still - the raw technical skills are what I am talking about and those are the most rare especially in many sports. You could argue that American football necessitates more athleticism on many positions and less technical abilities. Soccer requires more technical abilities with the central and offensive positions necessitating more of those skills.

Most fast sprinters attempted different sports because they pay more, but they lacked the very technical skills that I am talking about.

Oh - and I played soccer. I met even 3 pro-going players. One who went pro at 16, but then pissed away his talent within 3 years with booze and drugs. I still remember that guy playing against young amateurs aged 14. When he entered the field, it was as if the game was over because his skills were beyond anyone of us, he could score goals from far distances and was praised later by national coaches. Another one received an injury at 19 and I saw also the technical skill differential. He was able to learn other sports as well. The last one was the 14yo guy who I played tennis against.

Playing against the last guy showed me that I never really had much chance of becoming a pro tennis player even when starting early. Maybe with a fantastic work ethic beyond any measure I would have been able to breach top 1000 while someone like him could be playing in the top 100 if he picked up tennis instead of soccer in his childhood. Potentially my talent would not have sufficed to reach any pro level at tennis at all, regardless whether I hit hard, because my technical skills were not even remotely sufficient.
 
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