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<blockquote data-quote="nagareboshi" data-source="post: 1476496" data-attributes="member: 20216">It's one thing for a whirlpool to emerge when currents of water are streaming in various directions, creating a local source of order, but it's another thing to say that random currents and forces would create entirely self-sustaining life filled with organs, cells, proteins, organelles, etc.Once life gets started, we can see that local entropy reductions can happen naturally and in the everyday biological world. But who was the one who paid the initial energy cost to set up all those living systems in order? To say this all happened randomly (when order tends to decrease, not increase) is almost like saying that you can use stochastic gradient descent with very small increments to roll a pebble up a giant mountain, after which it settles in a local valley. It seems much more believable that an intelligence placed the pebble in that valley, after which equilibrium is attained.I basically think that naturalists / mainstream materialists (correctly) see that micro-evolution works when you get all the foundations for DNA-based carbon lifeforms established, but they (including you) wrongly generalize from this posterior phenomenon and assume it must have happened all the way in the beginning, with non-life, as well.I mean, think about it: is it not true that the origin of life and the progression of life are two very different concepts? You should disentangle them from one another, and evidence for the latter phenomenon does not count at all as evidence for the former.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="nagareboshi, post: 1476496, member: 20216"] It's one thing for a whirlpool to emerge when currents of water are streaming in various directions, creating a local source of order, but it's another thing to say that random currents and forces would create entirely self-sustaining life filled with organs, cells, proteins, organelles, etc. Once life gets started, we can see that local entropy reductions can happen naturally and in the everyday biological world. But who was the one who paid the initial energy cost to set up all those living systems in order? To say this all happened randomly (when order tends to decrease, not increase) is almost like saying that you can use stochastic gradient descent with very small increments to roll a pebble up a giant mountain, after which it settles in a local valley. It seems much more believable that an intelligence placed the pebble in that valley, after which equilibrium is attained. I basically think that naturalists / mainstream materialists (correctly) see that micro-evolution works when you get all the foundations for DNA-based carbon lifeforms established, but they (including you) wrongly generalize from this posterior phenomenon and assume it must have happened all the way in the beginning, with non-life, as well. I mean, think about it: is it not true that the origin of life and the progression of life are two very different concepts? You should disentangle them from one another, and evidence for the latter phenomenon does not count at all as evidence for the former. [/QUOTE]

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