The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread

[redbeard]

We have a Catholic thread, but I figured a thread specific to the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) would be helpful.

Many forum members have found the TLM to be spectacular for understanding our faith and bringing us closer to Christ. I highly recommend everyone at least dip their toes in the Latin form. At the least, you'll be able to see what else is out there before committing to the Novus Ordo mass.

These videos from Dr. Taylor Marshall are a great introduction for beginners and veterans alike:

 

[Roosh]

I'm curious: have trad Catholics been learning Latin as a result? I would guess you only need to learn less than 500 words.

 

[Aurini]

I'm curious: have trad Catholics been learning Latin as a result? I would guess you only need to learn less than 500 words.

Part of the reason that I appreciate Latin Mass is because I studied Latin in University; it's nice to have those skills reinforced with Pater Noster qui es in caelis...

It's the sort of thing - especially with children - that will help them adopt the language internally. And given that Latin is a grammatically superior language to any of the vulgar tongues, it will improve their cognition as adults, as well.

All of that said, there's a great deal of self righteousness in trad circles; spiritual pride. So the Church I go to, I go because the priest is a man I deeply respect, and the congregation is both humble and loving.

I do miss the organ music, though.

 

[NoMoreTO]

4 ways to find Latin Mass Near You

(1) Diocese : Check with your local diocese website. Since Pope Benedict XVI, most Dioceses have a Latin Mass in one of their Churches to allow for the 'celebration of the extraordinary form'. In this case, you are going to a latin mass, at a Church that runs 'mostly' new masses. I spoke with a diocesan Priest who has been trained to celebrate latin mass, he explained that he can not really speak latin, but can pronounce it/read it, although he has to do some preparation before mass to make sure he has full understanding. I have attended Latin Masses at a Diocese in three separate locations. Estimated Female Veil Rate 1/3 although I have a special place in my heart for these girls raised in New Mass deciding to veil on their own!
PROS: Location may be very good for you, keeps a certain continuity with New Mass Catholics, Build the Latin Mass locally, Liturgy is exactly the same,
CONS: Parishioners are working still to learn the latin, when to get up and down, not all masses at the Church are latin. Sometimes you get a TLM once a month in a location. I have also found that the choir and such isn't quite as trained up as at a full latin apostolate. The Altar might still be out from the wall, although the orientation is 'ad orientum'.

(2) Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP): Formed in 1988, they run parishes that run latin mass exclusively. There was essentially a split in 1988 from SSPX. I attend one of these Churches and it seems like the priests are formed very well. Thomas Aquinas is studied intensively in seminary, questions are asked in latin in their seminary. I have been attending an FSSP apostolate for about 6 months now. They 'Accept' Vatican 2, but don't seem to really preach it. Fr. Ripperberger was formed as an FSSP Priest. Estimated Female Veil Rate 2/3
PROS: Latin Mass Everyday, Classically Trained Priests, I found a very rounded out 'latin mass community' of very devout people who know the liturgy and have lots of traditions.
CONS: Order must be invited in by the Diocese, they do not have their own Bishop so priests must be ordained by local Bishop.
FSSP

(3) Society of St. Pius X (SSPX): "is an international priestly fraternity founded in 1970 by Marcel Lefebvre, the traditionalist French archbishop who later clashed with the Holy See over the Society. The Society, named after the anti-modernist Pope Pius X, is known for rejecting the indications of the Second Vatican Council". I have only gone to one SSPX Chapel, it seemed very devout. Female Veil Rate was 100%
PROS: They have their own Bishops, so they can operate independently of Holy See and Ordain their own Priests, Large Number of Chapels.
CONS: Can be a little rebellious to Rome, or could its a fine line.
SSPX

(4) The Institute of Christ the King: I have never been but have heard good things.
Institute of Christ the King

(5*) Sede Vacante Churches & Chapels running Latin Mass. These are not associated with Rome, so you would not be Roman Catholic but a form of Protestant who says the Pope is not sitting on the seat. The situation is difficult today with the Pope and Vatican 2, and no access to the Latin Mass Locally so there are Catholics who have chosen to worship in these places. I would advise Catholics to avoid.

 

[RexImperator]

I'm curious: have trad Catholics been learning Latin as a result? I would guess you only need to learn less than 500 words.

Usually there’s an English translation in the booklet next to the Latin words of the service, so it’s pretty easy to follow and pick things up as you go. Latin forming the basis of many European languages helps make it less alien than one might think.

 

[Roosh]

I'm curious: have trad Catholics been learning Latin as a result? I would guess you only need to learn less than 500 words.

Usually there’s an English translation in the booklet next to the Latin words of the service, so it’s pretty easy to follow and pick things up as you go. Latin forming the basis of many European languages helps make it less alien than one might think.

That's the same for the Armenian liturgy in that there's a service book, but I feel a pull to learn Classical Armenian (which can be very different from modern Armenian). My priest said I really have to learn only 300 words. I imagine you'd feel closer to God staring at the altar than at a service book.

 

[911]

I'm curious: have trad Catholics been learning Latin as a result? I would guess you only need to learn less than 500 words.

If you speak Italian, French or Spanish, basic Latin is easy enough to learn. It's closest to Italian.

Latin used to be an integral part of the middle school curriculum in France, at least as an option. It's being weeded out in the public school system for political/anticlerical reasons, but still taught in parochial schools along with classical Greek (mostly Catholic schools, we threw our Protestants out a while back, I don't think Protestants are into Latin).

 

[NoMoreTO]

Learning Latin I think is a lot easier than some of the eastern languages (eg. Greek, Armenian)
- we have latin all over English words
- same Roman alphabet
- pronunciation is pretty easy, most words are pretty phonetic
- there is latin in Duolingo

There is actually ecclesiastical latin (aka Church latin) and latin from the Roman era, some of the pronunciations are slightly different but I think the structure and words are pretty similar.

Here are some basic prayers in Latin in Audio from Dr. Taylor Marshall (Guy in OPs' post). These are free documents, that were sent to me so I think its ok to redistribute. I would actually recommend his institute.

Our Father (Pater Noster)
Hail Mary (Ave Maria)
Glory Be (Gloria)
Table Blessing

Latin Prayers Audio Sample_DrTM_2minutes

Link to Rosary Prayer Text & pronunciation rules - Latin

 

[Rob Banks]

(5*) Sede Vacante Churches & Chapels running Latin Mass. These are not associated with Rome, so you would not be Roman Catholic but a form of Protestant who says the Pope is not sitting on the seat. The situation is difficult today with the Pope and Vatican 2, and no access to the Latin Mass Locally so there are Catholics who have chosen to worship in these places. I would advise Catholics to avoid.

I started going to a Traditional Latin Mass (SSPX) church last week. It was recommended to me by a forum member on another thread.

However, I have been watching/reading sedevacantist videos and websites, and their opinion seems to be that the SSPX position of "recognize & resist" (i.e. recognize the post-Vatican II popes but resist their heretical teachings) is wrong. One sedevacantist priest was even saying that he is theologically closer to Novus Ordo churches than SSPX churches because both he and the Novus Ordo churches recognize the fact that Catholics must submit to the pope (when there is one), whereas SSPX believes that it is OK for Catholics to recognize the pope but not submit to his authority.

I was wondering what do traditional Catholics think about this?

 

[redbeard]

I'm slowly picking up Latin in the process. I'm not a fast learner when it comes to languages and I haven't been as diligent about extra-curricular study. But, Latin is similar enough that it's not too difficult.

On top of that, I agree with the others that you don't need to be fluent to understand the mass. There's only so many words in the liturgy.

This is doubly true if you have a background of going to N.O. mass, since you see the basic framework of the mass. You don't have to know what every word means to understand what is being said.

 

[redbeard]

The SSPX issue is tricky and I wish both sides (Vatican & SSPX) were a bit more clear about what's going on. Everyone loves to bring up the "fact" that "SSPX is excommunicated," but where's the citation? Why are they so afraid of the society?

NoMoreTO and I talked about this a bit earlier:

Great read on St. Marys. Inspiring.

However, I have an issue with SSPX's relationship with the Vatican. I haven't done enough research and I'm not completely convinced on all the sedevacantism stuff.

SSPX is not Sedevacantist. Still, I can understand your reticence given the fact that their bishops were excommunicated and now brought back into the fold.

I must've heard wrong. Is there any site that explains this situation well? I was under the impression SSPX sacraments were not acceptable under the Church.

I could be wrong but, as far as I understand:
1. Baptism is legitimate whenever it is done properly
2. Eucharist is based on the priest receiving his holy orders via valid bishop (which SSPX have) to consecrate host
3. Confession is the 'Keys' that loose and bind, and comes through the Church Authority. So yes, this was in question. It seems like Pope Francis has lifted this

In order for a priest to validly witness marriages and grant absolution in confession, a priest requires not only the sacrament of Holy Orders but also the faculties — or permission — of a bishop in union with the Pope. Although Pope Francis has extended faculties to absolve sins, he has not granted similar faculties for SSPX clergy to validly witness marriages.

SSPX Confession
4. Marriage : According to the article SSPX does not yet have marriage authority. Something similar happened to a priest of mine where he had to find a friendly Bishop to allow him to marry people in another district
5. Holy Orders The priests are legitimate through apostolic succession. SSPX has its own Bishops and can consecrate its priests independently.
6. Extreme Unction - Not sure
7. Confirmation - Not sure

However I think that article is outdated. An interesting development is that in 2017 the Vatican allowed SSPX to ordain marriages and the sacrament of penance. If the society was so heretical, why would Pope Francis explicitly recognize their right to ordain sacraments?

 

[NoMoreTO]

(5*) Sede Vacante Churches & Chapels running Latin Mass. These are not associated with Rome, so you would not be Roman Catholic but a form of Protestant who says the Pope is not sitting on the seat. The situation is difficult today with the Pope and Vatican 2, and no access to the Latin Mass Locally so there are Catholics who have chosen to worship in these places. I would advise Catholics to avoid.

I started going to a Traditional Latin Mass (SSPX) church last week. It was recommended to me by a forum member on another thread.

However, I have been watching/reading sedevacantist videos and websites, and their opinion seems to be that the SSPX position of "recognize & resist" (i.e. recognize the post-Vatican II popes but resist their heretical teachings) is wrong. One sedevacantist priest was even saying that he is theologically closer to Novus Ordo churches than SSPX churches because both he and the Novus Ordo churches recognize the fact that Catholics must submit to the pope (when there is one), whereas SSPX believes that it is OK for Catholics to recognize the pope but not submit to his authority.

I was wondering what do traditional Catholics think about this?

Catholics must submit to Authority unless they order us to do something that goes against God. This applies to the Pope, but also your boss at work, and if you are a woman, your husband.

The Word Catholic means Universal. We believe in a Visible Church and a Pope. This is why 'some' Sede Vacantists have even elected their own Pope, and technically they have some backing.

SSPX, FSSP are supporting the tradition, there is nothing in Catholic Dogma about having a New Mass. In fact, the Catechism of Trent asserts the Tridentine Mass (TLM) as the Mass of All Ages. The mass is a proper prayer and a sacrifice, and will always be legitimate.

SSPX has not formally declared in anyway Vatican 2 heresy, as I understand it they have 'questions'. Which the Church should indeed be answering, that is what the Church is supposed to do. Lefebvre did break with Authority when he consecrated his own Bishops without the Popes authority. This is automatic ex communication, the Pope didn't even need to say anything. Remember , that Lefebvre himself signed Vatican 2.

 

[NoMoreTO]

Blog Article on TLM from a Priest.

A diocese smells the coffee: starts planning for decline of the Novus Ordo and growth of the TLM

A demographic sink hole is about to open up under the Church in these USA and elsewhere. Younger people are in large part “nones”, that is, professing no religion.
...
A friend of mine used to say provocatively that one day the Novus Ordo would disappear and only the TLM would remain. I didn’t buy that at the time. These days, I’m not so sure.
...
Frankly, as I have written before, I think that when the sink hole opens two groups will remain strong and vibrant: evangelical converts and charismatics and, on the other hand, traditionalists. Eventually these two groups will move closer and closer together and start to cross pollinate. As a matter of fact, I think that it is already happening.

Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

 

[redbeard]

It's also worth noting that the SSPX bishops excommunicated by the Econe consecrations were reversed in 2009:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Écône_consecrations#Lifting_of_excommunications

 

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

Other than in the Vatican itself, I don't see the appeal of a Mass in Latin. My ancestors fought hard for the right to conduct the mass in their native languages over 1000 years ago so that all of their people would be able to understand the Word. Why abandon that?

 

[NoMoreTO]

Other than in the Vatican itself, I don't see the appeal of a Mass in Latin. My ancestors fought hard for the right to conduct the mass in their native languages over 1000 years ago so that all of their people would be able to understand the Word. Why abandon that?

- Who are your ancestors and why did they revolt?

- Latin is a holy language, it is the language of the Church of Rome. If you are part of this Church, than latin is the language. There are places where everyone speaks different languages (imagine Africa) and we are all united in Latin. Half the people in my Church speak French, but we can pray together.

- Latin is a holy language, there were 3 languages on the cross, one was latin. The other 2 were greek, Aramaic.

- Latin is a dead language, this means the meanings of the words are fixed and there is no room for manipulation.

- The latin mass liturgy actually is more than just the language. It is the form of the entire mass. When the language of the mass was changed in the late 60s (Coincidence?), they didn't just change the language to the local vernacular, they changed the entire mass. So Latin Mass is slang for 'Old Mass'.

- Personally, I would go to a Mass in English which was a Tridentine mass over a New Mass said in Latin. It represents customs.

 

[Rob Banks]

Other than in the Vatican itself, I don't see the appeal of a Mass in Latin. My ancestors fought hard for the right to conduct the mass in their native languages over 1000 years ago so that all of their people would be able to understand the Word. Why abandon that?

Because the new Mass was introduced during Vatican II and therefore represents all the other changes that Vatican II brought to the church.

If they had only changed the Mass from Latin to English and nothing else, it wouldn't be as big of a deal. But that's not what they did. They changed the Mass and they also started to promote all sorts of other teachings that a lot of traditional Catholics consider to be heresies, such as teaching that salvation can be attained through all religions, or teaching that procreation is not the primary objective of sex and marriage (among many others)

 

[kel]

Other than in the Vatican itself, I don't see the appeal of a Mass in Latin. My ancestors fought hard for the right to conduct the mass in their native languages over 1000 years ago so that all of their people would be able to understand the Word. Why abandon that?

Also, let's break mass into the liturgy and preaching. The liturgy is ritual, it's meditative and transcendent. You're supposed to feel ancientness and infinity in it. You can learn the Latin needed for this ritual in, literally, a matter of minutes. You can know exactly what is being said and what it means and enjoy it in the language it was written in. Then there's the preaching, which should be done in the vernacular so everyone can understand and discuss.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

The liturgy is ritual, it's meditative and transcendent. You're supposed to feel ancientness and infinity in it. You can learn the Latin needed for this ritual in, literally, a matter of minutes. You can know exactly what is being said and what it means and enjoy it in the language it was written in.

You were able to learn in a matter of minutes all the Latin you needed to understand the Tridentine Mass?

I am impressed. I took Latin all through middle and high school, read Vulgate and parts of Ceasar's memoirs, and still could not keep up the first time I went to the Latin Mass in 10th or 11th grade. No doubt it would have gotten easier with practice.

I think it's crucial to understand and internalize the liturgy, since there is so much theology written into it. But the missal always has English on one side of the page, so a lack of Latin fluency shouldn't be a huge obstacle for most people who choose to attend the Latin liturgy.

 

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

- Who are your ancestors and why did they revolt?

My hometown has a giant statue of this Croatian Bishop called Grgur Ninski (Gregory of Nin) who got the permission from Rome to celebrate the Mass in the local language instead of Latin in 926. He was later replaced and had his Bishopric dissolved after infighting within the church, but the tradition remained and our language and alphabet thrived thanks to this, and we remained in the Roman sphere of influence rather than the Byzantine.

- Latin is a holy language, it is the language of the Church of Rome. If you are part of this Church, than latin is the language. There are places where everyone speaks different languages (imagine Africa) and we are all united in Latin. Half the people in my Church speak French, but we can pray together.

First of all, no language is holy. A language is merely a communication device that's influenced by all sorts of wordly factors starting from the Tower of Babel onwards. Jesus did not speak Latin, and the early Church did not celebrate the Mass in Latin either. So should we all learn and use Greek or Aramaic or whatever other language represented at that time? Of course not. A language is not holy, nor can it make anything holy. It is just a tool like a sheet of paper or a pipe organ .

Latin is a dead language, this means the meanings of the words are fixed and there is no room for manipulation.

I don't see how this matters at all, as words can always be translated differently. Furthermore, it is our task as Christians to guard our language against such manipulation, not to flock to a language to supposedly protect us from it.

The latin mass liturgy actually is more than just the language. It is the form of the entire mass. When the language of the mass was changed in the late 60s (Coincidence?), they didn't just change the language to the local vernacular, they changed the entire mass. So Latin Mass is slang for 'Old Mass'.

It seems to me that you're confusing and conflating Tridentine Mass with Latin. It's up to you to believe whether Novus Ordo is unsuitable or not, but the issue has nothing to do with Latin. People used to celebrate the old mass in numerous languages throughout history. I just gave you an example from my country that's over 1000 years old.

Also, let's break mass into the liturgy and preaching. The liturgy is ritual, it's meditative and transcendent. You're supposed to feel ancientness and infinity in it. You can learn the Latin needed for this ritual in, literally, a matter of minutes. You can know exactly what is being said and what it means and enjoy it in the language it was written in.

The problem with this way of thinking is that it turns the Mass from earnest prayer into a bureaucratic formality, as if it were an ancient Druidic Ritual or a Lvl 9 Transmutation spell out of D&D.

At best, it becomes en empty repetition based on "Perform action A, get the result B" like in Islam where everyone learns Arabic for some insane ethnicity-based reason.

At worst, it leads to ridiculous Pharisee-type thinking of "We're all praying, but see, I'm the only one doing it correctly!"

Moral of the story is, the Order of the Mass might have something to do with holiness, but the language doesn't.