The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread

Handsome Creepy Eel said:
So should we all learn and use Greek or Aramaic or whatever other language represented at that time? Of course not.

Handsome Creepy Eel said:
... like in Islam where everyone learns Arabic for some insane ethnicity-based reason.

I've heard from the one Muslim I know that they learn Arabic so they can read the Koran in its original tongue. Nothing is ever quite the same when translated, even though if translated properly (which is far from guaranteed with Bibles these days) it will give largely the same meaning.

That's why it's pretty typical for seminary students to learn a bit of koine Greek; so that they can gain a better understanding of the New Testament by reading it in the tongue it was written in. I don't think it's at all necessary to learn New Testament Greek to be a Christian, but it's very worthwhile.
 

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
Handsome Creepy Eel said:
NoMoreTO said:
- Who are your ancestors and why did they revolt?

First of all, no language is holy. A language is merely a communication device that's influenced by all sorts of wordly factors starting from the Tower of Babel onwards. Jesus did not speak Latin, and the early Church did not celebrate the Mass in Latin either. So should we all learn and use Greek or Aramaic or whatever other language represented at that time? Of course not. A language is not holy, nor can it make anything holy. It is just a tool like a sheet of paper or a pipe organ .

Latin is a dead language, this means the meanings of the words are fixed and there is no room for manipulation.

I don't see how this matters at all, as words can always be translated differently. Furthermore, it is our task as Christians to guard our language against such manipulation, not to flock to a language to supposedly protect us from it.

The latin mass liturgy actually is more than just the language. It is the form of the entire mass. When the language of the mass was changed in the late 60s (Coincidence?), they didn't just change the language to the local vernacular, they changed the entire mass. So Latin Mass is slang for 'Old Mass'.

It seems to me that you're confusing and conflating Tridentine Mass with Latin. It's up to you to believe whether Novus Ordo is unsuitable or not, but the issue has nothing to do with Latin. People used to celebrate the old mass in numerous languages throughout history. I just gave you an example from my country that's over 1000 years old.

kel said:
Also, let's break mass into the liturgy and preaching. The liturgy is ritual, it's meditative and transcendent. You're supposed to feel ancientness and infinity in it. You can learn the Latin needed for this ritual in, literally, a matter of minutes. You can know exactly what is being said and what it means and enjoy it in the language it was written in.

The problem with this way of thinking is that it turns the Mass from earnest prayer into a bureaucratic formality, as if it were an ancient Druidic Ritual or a Lvl 9 Transmutation spell out of D&D.

At best, it becomes en empty repetition based on "Perform action A, get the result B" like in Islam where everyone learns Arabic for some insane ethnicity-based reason.

At worst, it leads to ridiculous Pharisee-type thinking of "We're all praying, but see, I'm the only one doing it correctly!"

Moral of the story is, the Order of the Mass might have something to do with holiness, but the language doesn't.

Latin if it is not a holy Language, is a language related to all things Roman Catholic, which existed in the time of the New Testament, and seems to have an increased spiritual power. As support, exorcists such as Fr. Ripperberger have said that Latin works better in excorcising demons. There is no corruption in the words vs. the tradition. For example, if you pray a Pater Noster, this is the language used for centuries past. It is also the official language of the Church of Rome, all official Church documents are written in Latin. I can understand that a language is just a language, but the fact that latin is used exclusively to read Church documents, along with use in Legal world is something to consider. Also, Pipe Organs were made specifically to assist the Gregorian Chant, so they are holy in that their design was intrinsically spiritually focussed.

There is no confusion about structure of a mass vs. it being in Latin. There are very few Latin Masses which are not Tridentine, this is the first that I heard of this Croatian exception. So the two are used interchangeably. In most circles the two are used interchangeably.

Could you have a Tridentine Mass that was not in Latin? I am actually not sure. You could say all the exact same prayers in a native tongue, but it might not qualify as Tridentine. Remember in Tridentine, every Rubric is Fixed, this includes language. As I understand it, this is basically what people THOUGHT they would be getting after Vatican 2, along with some slight adjustments.

Your point on the pharisee holier than thou mentality is well taken, we should always guard against this. But be careful not to walk the Prot path too hard. As much as Trads can be Latin Snobs, at the same time we must always offer our BEST to God in the Mass. For me, it seems Latin is best, and taking some effort to learn and study latin for God's sake is admirable.

Bottom Line: this is the ROMAN RITE, so if Latin bugs you so much, consider searching yourself for Prot influences. Rebellion against the Church is not Catholic. Obedience is.
 
NoMoreTO said:
As support, exorcists such as Fr. Ripperberger have said that Latin works better in excorcising demons.

Is the exorcism rite the same in Latin and in the vernacular, or did that get Paul VId along with everything else? My sister recently recounted a story to me: a seminary director gave his students holy water blessed under the old rite, and they all started telling him that the latest batch of holy water suddenly seemed more powerful. He went through the prayers of blessing and realized that the Novus Ordo version was really watered down (heh) from the old Latin version.

Interstingly, some Russian Orthodox clergy claim Church Slavonic is more spiritually potent than modern Russian.

On a related note, this website has very good audio of the psalms in Latin for anyone interested in praying them in this manner: https://www.virgosacrata.com/parallel-latin-english-psalter
 

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
Emperor Constantine said:
NoMoreTO said:
As support, exorcists such as Fr. Ripperberger have said that Latin works better in excorcising demons.

Is the exorcism rite the same in Latin and in the vernacular, or did that get Paul VId along with everything else? My sister recently recounted a story to me: a seminary director gave his students holy water blessed under the old rite, and they all started telling him that the latest batch of holy water suddenly seemed more powerful. He went through the prayers of blessing and realized that the Novus Ordo version was really watered down (heh) from the old Latin version.

Interstingly, some Russian Orthodox clergy claim Church Slavonic is more spiritually potent than modern Russian.

On a related note, this website has very good audio of the psalms in Latin for anyone interested in praying them in this manner: https://www.virgosacrata.com/parallel-latin-english-psalter

The Priest at my Church has confirmed the same thing.

The holy water at our Church is exorcised with Salt. The ritual is longer and more exorcisms are done to the water prior to blessing it. The FSSP Mindset seems to be "The Devil is Real and we are at war with him". So there is a real push to first expel him in so many ways.

The holy water at a Novus Ordo is holy in that it is blessed, but it seems they don't do a full exorcism ritual beforehand. The mentality at Novus Ordo seems to be less fearful of the devil and more "We believe in the Devil but we focus on the water being blessed by God". Rather than add additional blessings, the New Rite seems to pull out and shorten the exorcism. (As I understand it)

Similar with baptism, the old rite has extensive exorcisms before baptizing the person. You can imagine how many demons there were in ancient Rome.
 

CaptainS

Hummingbird
Handsome Creepy Eel said:
Other than in the Vatican itself, I don't see the appeal of a Mass in Latin. My ancestors fought hard for the right to conduct the mass in their native languages over 1000 years ago so that all of their people would be able to understand the Word. Why abandon that?

A. The value of Latin is that, as a dead language, the meaning of words doesn't continue to change.

B. The Latin Mass was exactly what you're describing. It was a translation of Greek and Aramaic (and a few others) to the local vernacular. Rome spoke Latin, so translating the mass to Latin was done so local people could understand it. There's nothing holy about the language itself. There's nothing that makes the mass more effective if it's in Latin. Jesus didn't say the first mass in Latin, the early apostles didn't either.

The only real problem is that, when the mass is translated to other languages, the translators substantively (and purposely) change the meaning. The NO mass is, officially, in Latin. Doesn't make it valid.
 
I learned today that after the English reformation, although the Anglicans normally celebrated the Mass in English, the rules allowed for the liturgy to be celebrated in any language that was understood. So at the universities - where the whole curricula was basically Greek and Latin - for a long time they continued to celebrate Mass and the Divine Office in Latin.

Also in Ireland, they kept the Latin liturgy until it could be translated into Gaellic, since the Irish were more familiar with Latin than with English.
 

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
What Do All of the Following
Words and Phrases Have In Common?

sacrifice
reparation
hell
the gravity of sin
snares of wickedness
the burden of evil
adversities
enemies
evils
tribulations
afflictions
infirmities of soul
obstinacy of heart
concupiscence of the flesh and of the eyes
unworthiness
temptations
wicked thoughts
grave offenses
loss of heaven
everlasting death
eternal punishment
hidden fruits
guilt
eternal rest
true faith
merits
intercession
heavenly fellowship
fires of hell

What do these phrases and words all have in common? They are all found in the Traditional Roman Catholic (Latin) Mass and were systematically suppressed and eliminated from the “revised” Novus Ordo missal by Pope Paul VI in 1969.
 

Augustus_Principe

Woodpecker
Handsome Creepy Eel said:
NoMoreTO said:
- Who are your ancestors and why did they revolt?

estatua-de-grgur-ninski.jpg


My hometown has a giant statue of this Croatian Bishop called Grgur Ninski (Gregory of Nin) who got the permission from Rome to celebrate the Mass in the local language instead of Latin in 926. He was later replaced and had his Bishopric dissolved after infighting within the church, but the tradition remained and our language and alphabet thrived thanks to this, and we remained in the Roman sphere of influence rather than the Byzantine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_Croatia#Middle_Ages

"Since the 9th century there is in Croatia a unique phenomenon in the entire world of Catholicism, liturgy that was held in Church Slavonic language with special Glagolitic script (Pope was allowing serving liturgy only in Latin). Despite the various disputes, Pope Innocent IV approved use of Church Slavonic language and the Glagolitic script to Filip, bishop of Senj, thus making Croats the only Latin Catholics in the world allowed to use a language other than Latin in their liturgy prior to the Second Vatican Council in 1962"

Very interesting as I too, never heard of this. Do you understand Old Church Slavonic?

To stay on topic, I find the Latin language beautiful and Gregorian Chant nothing short of heavenly, even though I do not understand it, but can make out some words with my knowledge of Spanish. I will start to make an effort to learn these prayers in Latin.
 

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
Augustus_Principe said:
To stay on topic, I find the Latin language beautiful and Gregorian Chant nothing short of heavenly, even though I do not understand it, but can make out some words with my knowledge of Spanish. I will start to make an effort to learn these prayers in Latin.

I would recommend picking up an old 1962 or 1945 Missal if you aren't going to TLM but are interested in learning the prayers/mass. You can get these online or at a TLM Church

They will have translations of the mass, translations of many main prayers in Latin / English, and lots of additional prayers in English. They are solid prayer books in addition to having all the masses for the whole year

You can also check into having a bible which has the Latin & English side by side. I have an Douay Rheims which has the latin vulgate side by side. I rarely use it but it's definitely a nice to have.
 

Handsome Creepy Eel

Owl
Gold Member
NoMoreTO said:
What Do All of the Following
Words and Phrases Have In Common?

sacrifice
reparation
hell
the gravity of sin
snares of wickedness
the burden of evil
adversities
enemies
evils
tribulations
afflictions
infirmities of soul
obstinacy of heart
concupiscence of the flesh and of the eyes
unworthiness
temptations
wicked thoughts
grave offenses
loss of heaven
everlasting death
eternal punishment
hidden fruits
guilt
eternal rest
true faith
merits
intercession
heavenly fellowship
fires of hell

What do these phrases and words all have in common? They are all found in the Traditional Roman Catholic (Latin) Mass and were systematically suppressed and eliminated from the “revised” Novus Ordo missal by Pope Paul VI in 1969.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I hear all of those words during every Mass that I attend...

Augustus said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_C...iddle_Ages

"Since the 9th century there is in Croatia a unique phenomenon in the entire world of Catholicism, liturgy that was held in Church Slavonic language with special Glagolitic script (Pope was allowing serving liturgy only in Latin). Despite the various disputes, Pope Innocent IV approved use of Church Slavonic language and the Glagolitic script to Filip, bishop of Senj, thus making Croats the only Latin Catholics in the world allowed to use a language other than Latin in their liturgy prior to the Second Vatican Council in 1962"

Very interesting as I too, never heard of this. Do you understand Old Church Slavonic?

Sure, my knowledge of Glagolitic (Glagoljica) script is pretty rusty right now, but if it's spoken or written in the Latin/Croatian alphabet, I understand most of Old Church Slavonic (Staroslavenski). It's no more foreign than any other Slavic language to me, probably less so.

 

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
Handsome Creepy Eel said:
Maybe I'm crazy, but I hear all of those words during every Mass that I attend...

You have a good Church / Parish then. I have heard that in Europe, depending where you are the teaching isn't quite so watered down. Specifically in Eastern Europe, former communist block countries. There is also some variation priest to priest.

Generally speaking, the education of the Priests in Traditional Rites is more orthodox, more strict.

I hadn't heard the word hell for 10 years in Church until I went to TLM. I remember it well actually. The priest explained in his homily that God was infinitely loving because heaven was infinitely beautiful, but hell was not infinitely painful, which was a sign of mercy. That one took a moment to sink in.

Part of it is tone, the other part is that in a Novus Ordo mass, the general audience has a significantly lower catechism level. If you speak of temporal punishment, no one will know what you're talking about.
 
Augustus_Principe said:
"... Despite the various disputes, Pope Innocent IV approved use of Church Slavonic language and the Glagolitic script to Filip, bishop of Senj, thus making Croats the only Latin Catholics in the world allowed to use a language other than Latin in their liturgy prior to the Second Vatican Council in 1962"

Not quite. IIRC it was Charlemagne who first successfully enforced the use of the Latin Mass throughout his empire. In the ancient world and the early middle ages there were still vernacular liturgies in the West. St. Aidan of Lindisfarne (same Lindisfarne that the Vikings sacked) is remembered for his preservation of the Celtic liturgies and traditions in the face of attempted Latinization.
 

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
I thought I'd cross post this here, what to do if you don't have a latin mass nearby! Wondering if any of you guys have methods of discerning Novus Ordo or just stay home.

The key in the Roman Catholic Church is selecting a parish which is 'based'. My thinking would be that your first priority should be a conservative traditional liturgy, this would be my favourites in order. The great thing about latin mass isn't just the liturgy, its also that the parishioners are seeking a traditional liturgy and I have found are more devout.
(1) FSSP / Institute of Christ the King (Latin Mass)
(2) SSPX (Latin Mass)
(3) Latin Mass at your local diocese (if you can't find #1 or #2 locally)

After this you look at your local parish celebrating Novus Ordo (New Order) Mass.
(a) Listen to the homilies. I recently met a white girl who went to a Hatian Church with all black people because the Priest gave based homilies. There are still some good homilies depending on the Priest. It isn't all about being based either.
(b) Following above, consider a Church built by an ethnic group that is based. These parishes might be a little more based if the people are from Victor Orbans' Hungary for example.
© Take a look at the bulletin, how many female lectors (readers) are there ? How many times is confession offered/ week? Do they do first Friday, First Saturdays, benediction on a regular basis.
(d) Are eucharistic ministers being used, if so, take your communion from the Priest and avoid using them.
(e) Are all altar boys male
(f) Does priest wear all black with collar outside of mass? To me this is a good sign of a trad priest.
(g) Consider the organ music mass over the guitar mass if you want more conservative.
(h) Look at the architecture of the Church. Was it built before 1970 ? Catholic Churches with new architecture are built like barns, are less ornate and have more simplistic stain glass windows. Also you will notice some of them are more circular or have a fan quality. Basically avoid modern architecture churches!
 

fr0st

Chicken
The SSPX is building a massive new Cathedral in St. Mary's Kansas to hold over 1,500 parishioners and serve over 4,000 members of their congregation. Trad Catholicism is getting really popular.

https://vimeo.com/347756180 (25 minute video going over the history of St. Mary's, detailing the founding of the town by Catholic missionaries, purchase of the campus by the SSPX in the 70s, burning down of the old church in the 80's, and construction of the new Cathedral)
[video=vimeo]https://vimeo.com/347756180[/MEDIA]...website: [URL]https://www.anewimmaculata.org/
 

redbeard

Hummingbird
Moderator
fr0st said:
The SSPX is building a massive new Cathedral in St. Mary's Kansas to hold over 1,500 parishioners and serve over 4,000 members of their congregation. Trad Catholicism is getting really popular.

https://vimeo.com/347756180 (25 minute video going over the history of St. Mary's, detailing the founding of the town by Catholic missionaries, purchase of the campus by the SSPX in the 70s, burning down of the old church in the 80's, and construction of the new Cathedral)
[video=vimeo]https://vimeo.com/347756180[/MEDIA]...website: [URL]https://www.anewimmaculata.org/

Very curious if anyone's ever made the pilgrimage.

Or, just for starters, has anyone actually met SSPX parishioners? There's not much near me and I have little to no familiarity with them in real life.
 

redbeard

Hummingbird
Moderator
Haha, perfect timing. T-Marsh just posted an interview with an SSPX priest. Haven't listened yet but this should be good...

 

fr0st

Chicken
redbeard said:
Haha, perfect timing. T-Marsh just posted an interview with an SSPX priest. Haven't listened yet but this should be good...


Marshall is a member of the FSSP who split from the SSPX during the little excommunication fiasco, I'll have to listen.
 

redbeard

Hummingbird
Moderator
This was a solid show.

Listening to Fr. Robinson talk about Ab. Lefebvre, it feels very similar to how Roosh has been treated by the media.

Ask any mainstream Catholic what they think of the SSPX. They'll either have no idea who they are, or they'll say "oh, they're heretical, stay away." They take one event (the Écône consecrations) and blow it way out of proportion.

Similarly, liberals and feminists read one Roosh article (How To Prevent Rape) and smear him as a rape advocate. Seem familiar?

This podcast clearly shows that the Archbishop had good intentions and tried to follow canon law to a T. Combine this with the fact that the bishops from the Écône consecrations had their excommunications lifted in 2009, it initially doesn't make sense why the SSPX is treated so badly. But, after this podcast, it's clear - Ab. Lefebvre would not bend knee to the Novus Ordo, and was punished for it.
 
Top