The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
Lent is actually the oldest part of the Missal (aside from holy week which was swapped between 1945 and 1962).

On Good Friday in the 1945 we prayed for the "Faithless" Jews (Perfidious), which was removed
Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts 2 Corinthians 3:13-16; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. ('Amen' is not responded, nor is said 'Let us pray', or 'Let us kneel', or 'Arise', but immediately is said:) Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen.

One nice thing about Lent is there is a specific mass everyday. The translation in latin for Lenten season in the missal is actually different than in the Latin Vulgate which dates back to the 4th century. You may notice slight differences in translation because the Missal is actually older.

Why not change it? Because this translation was 'edified' through the Mass! An interesting idea, although the Vulgate may be more accurate as a translation or the standard translation, because so many Masses were performed with this translation, it was made holy defacto. It is the oldest part of your missal.

The Priests at my FSSP want to replace the 1962 Holy Week with a 1945 Holy Week. Right now only a subset of FSSP Parishes have approval from the Pope to perform the 1945 version. He anticipates approval for the 1945 version to all FSSP parishes next year. Lets see. The Holy Week was the first part of the Mass updated, by one of the masterminds of the Novus Ordo, prior to Novus Ordo.

In the 1945 Good Friday Mass, only the Priest receives communion.
 
Good Friday in the Byzantine Rite is pretty savage towards the Jews as well. It appears the Eastern rite Catholics have dropped the word "Jew" from the Orthodox service, but kept all the synonyms. Just looking at Matins, you see them labeled as:
"The lawless company of the enemies of God"
"the wicked band of murderers"
"impious ones"
"pack of dogs"
"unrighteous people"

This evisceration is put on hold through the little hours and resumes at Vespers.
Source: https://mci.archpitt.org/sheetmusic/general/Holy_Friday_Matins.pdf
 

WillOfTheD

Chicken
NoMoreTO said:
Augustus_Principe said:
To stay on topic, I find the Latin language beautiful and Gregorian Chant nothing short of heavenly, even though I do not understand it, but can make out some words with my knowledge of Spanish. I will start to make an effort to learn these prayers in Latin.

I would recommend picking up an old 1962 or 1945 Missal if you aren't going to TLM but are interested in learning the prayers/mass. You can get these online or at a TLM Church

They will have translations of the mass, translations of many main prayers in Latin / English, and lots of additional prayers in English. They are solid prayer books in addition to having all the masses for the whole year

You can also check into having a bible which has the Latin & English side by side. I have an Douay Rheims which has the latin vulgate side by side. I rarely use it but it's definitely a nice to have.

Corpus Christi Watershed uploaded an older Lasance Missal that's a great base for starting to learn the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) and get a feel for what to expect in a missal. It's the same version recommended by Taylor Marshall.

https://www.ccwatershed.org/2013/03/19/1937-fr-lasance-missal/

However, nothing beats a physical copy. I study my St. Andrew's Daily (1945) before going to a diocesan TLM so I can focus on the altar, as Roosh mentioned earlier.
 

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
My FSSP Church will be televising masses on the regular over this period of time. They will also be improving the audio. They are trying to get to 1,000 subscribers so their youtube can be broadcast for free.

Please subscribe if you get the chance or would like this coming regularly through your feed over this period of time.

 
WillOfTheD said:
NoMoreTO said:
Augustus_Principe said:
To stay on topic, I find the Latin language beautiful and Gregorian Chant nothing short of heavenly, even though I do not understand it, but can make out some words with my knowledge of Spanish. I will start to make an effort to learn these prayers in Latin.

I would recommend picking up an old 1962 or 1945 Missal if you aren't going to TLM but are interested in learning the prayers/mass. You can get these online or at a TLM Church

They will have translations of the mass, translations of many main prayers in Latin / English, and lots of additional prayers in English. They are solid prayer books in addition to having all the masses for the whole year

You can also check into having a bible which has the Latin & English side by side. I have an Douay Rheims which has the latin vulgate side by side. I rarely use it but it's definitely a nice to have.

Corpus Christi Watershed uploaded an older Lasance Missal that's a great base for starting to learn the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) and get a feel for what to expect in a missal. It's the same version recommended by Taylor Marshall.

https://www.ccwatershed.org/2013/03/19/1937-fr-lasance-missal/

However, nothing beats a physical copy. I study my St. Andrew's Daily (1945) before going to a diocesan TLM so I can focus on the altar, as Roosh mentioned earlier.

Also, if you just want to get used to a bit of Latin everyday, Duolingo actually just recently added Latin to their list of languages. You won't start out learning ecclesiastical terms, but it will help you understand the language better at the cost of less than 10 minutes everyday on your phone.
 

Rob Banks

Pelican
Catholic forum members who attend TLM:

What is your position on attending the New Mass if and when TLM is unavailable?

Do you consider the New Mass to be valid?
 

AnonymousBosch

Crow
Gold Member
NoMoreTO said:
What Do All of the Following
Words and Phrases Have In Common?

Someone's using them as schismatic propaganda?

None of these theological concepts are absent from the Australian Novus Ordo. If someone is telling you otherwise, you're being emotionally-manipulated. Note that is an area that the Demonic has access to in our Psyche, or Animal Soul, which is why my initial pull towards the Latin Mass was due to Fear instilled by a Latin Mass goer, and connatural knowledge, intellectual knowledge and experiential knowledge showed me he was very wrong, and I went back to where God had initially told me to go: The Novus Ordo Mass at a Monastery, which was exactly where I needed to be to learn to come to God via his Mercy, not his Justice, which, as Jesus repeatedly says, isn't His will - was the way the Jews came to him was via Justice. I've never doubted my choice, and internal peace followed - a fruit by which I knew I'd made the correct choice.

You can't trust sensible judgements: what arrives through your emotions. For example, if you choose to attend Latin Mass simply because it 'feels' holier, or the Legalistic Desire behind choosing that form of service appeals to you, the demons are already at work in you. You would be seeking self-satisfaction from the mass, and would then be led a harder road by God to have this desire for self stripped out of you. Go for the love of God. Not because the Church is prettier, or the singing is beautiful, or the Latin feels more formal. Be very wary of sensible decision making. For example, I attend a very poor, bare bones Novus Ordo Church now that the Monastery has closed, because I intellectually-understand I don't need the grander exterior trappings to connect with God. The Priests are devoted and rock solid, having charisms, perception and abilities beyond the norm; the Laity are harmonious, welcoming and pleasant; and their are no divisive factions talking about 'social justice': we're just a little family. I don't need to 'feel' a church is right, I just need to 'know' a church is right.

I'm not denigrating either form, and I suggest the path of humility is not to throw accusations around, and to get an inflated sense of holiness from attending versus the other. Jesus arrives at either form of consecration, as promised to St Catherine of Sienna, the holiness, or lack of it, in the Priests doesn't ever affect the Sacraments to protect the Laity. God will lead you to what form suits you best. As I did, ask him to lead you to the Church you need, which is why I was disobeying his will by attending the Latin Mass to begin with. If you are led to the Latin Mass, simply guard against Pride and any Heightened Emotional Responses.

Father Ripperger, and Traditionalist Exorcist has a great breakdown here of the Observable Effects of the Demonic in their Movement. He'd know what he's talking about:


There's a transcript of the talk here:

10 Problems in the Traditionalist Movement

Pay attention to what he says, and mortify any such behaviour as it evidences itself.

As for SSPX: What happens when people cut themselves off from the vine in a prideful manner, when we're warned to be humble and obedient, for being severed from the vine promises demonic infestation? God humbles them, and they fall prey to the exact same scandal as their hated Vatican II church.

Sex Abuse Scandal in SPXX

Hopefully he'll bring them back into the fold.
 

AnonymousBosch

Crow
Gold Member
The SSPX is a weird situation all around. They're either illegitimate, but if they are legitimized, as it's looking increasingly-likely they will be, it will be by Pope Francis and the Holy See, which means they they will then be operating the approval of a Church they consider corrupted by Satan. So...

Anyway, a good explanation of the situation follows, from the Regina Apostolorum in Rome. Note they draw a clear line between the Latin Mass in it's 1962 Missal form, and the SSPX.

Mass with the SSPX?
 

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
AnonymousBosch said:
NoMoreTO said:
What Do All of the Following
Words and Phrases Have In Common?

Someone's using them as schismatic propaganda?

None of these theological concepts are absent from the Australian Novus Ordo. If someone is telling you otherwise, you're being emotionally-manipulated. Note that is an area that the Demonic has access to in our Psyche, or Animal Soul, which is why my initial pull towards the Latin Mass was due to Fear instilled by a Latin Mass goer, and connatural knowledge, intellectual knowledge and experiential knowledge showed me he was very wrong, and I went back to where God had initially told me to go: The Novus Ordo Mass at a Monastery, which was exactly where I needed to be to learn to come to God via his Mercy, not his Justice, which, as Jesus repeatedly says, isn't His will - was the way the Jews came to him was via Justice. I've never doubted my choice, and internal peace followed - a fruit by which I knew I'd made the correct choice.

You can't trust sensible judgements: what arrives through your emotions. For example, if you choose to attend Latin Mass simply because it 'feels' holier, or the Legalistic Desire behind choosing that form of service appeals to you, the demons are already at work in you. You would be seeking self-satisfaction from the mass, and would then be led a harder road by God to have this desire for self stripped out of you. Go for the love of God. Not because the Church is prettier, or the singing is beautiful, or the Latin feels more formal. Be very wary of sensible decision making. For example, I attend a very poor, bare bones Novus Ordo Church now that the Monastery has closed, because I intellectually-understand I don't need the grander exterior trappings to connect with God. The Priests are devoted and rock solid, having charisms, perception and abilities beyond the norm; the Laity are harmonious, welcoming and pleasant; and their are no divisive factions talking about 'social justice': we're just a little family. I don't need to 'feel' a church is right, I just need to 'know' a church is right.

I'm not denigrating either form, and I suggest the path of humility is not to throw accusations around, and to get an inflated sense of holiness from attending versus the other. Jesus arrives at either form of consecration, as promised to St Catherine of Sienna, the holiness, or lack of it, in the Priests doesn't ever affect the Sacraments to protect the Laity. God will lead you to what form suits you best. As I did, ask him to lead you to the Church you need, which is why I was disobeying his will by attending the Latin Mass to begin with. If you are led to the Latin Mass, simply guard against Pride and any Heightened Emotional Responses.

Father Ripperger, and Traditionalist Exorcist has a great breakdown here of the Observable Effects of the Demonic in their Movement. He'd know what he's talking about:


There's a transcript of the talk here:

10 Problems in the Traditionalist Movement

Pay attention to what he says, and mortify any such behaviour as it evidences itself.

As for SSPX: What happens when people cut themselves off from the vine in a prideful manner, when we're warned to be humble and obedient, for being severed from the vine promises demonic infestation? God humbles them, and they fall prey to the exact same scandal as their hated Vatican II church.

Sex Abuse Scandal in SPXX

Hopefully he'll bring them back into the fold.

The issue I have with Novus Ordo has less to with the liturgy and more to do with the teaching. That said yes, I believe the liturgy was a big olive branch to Protestants, to heretics.

When I attend with my Mother in our home town, there is so much noise and chatter, it is a cross to simply pray. The parishioners generally speaking do not walk up to communion with reverence. This is confirmed in side conversations with friends an family, belief in the eucharist and Catholic doctrine seems non existent. Recently they have pushed standing up after receiving communion until all have received and not kneeling to pray. Then everyone kneels for 1 minute together and is back up. I struggle to not see the diabolical at work here.

There is next to no emphasis on confession, other than Easter which was just skipped? What of our holy obligation to have this sacrament at least once a year? For most it happens in lent leading up to Easter weekend for which it was closed.

I recognize that it is a sin of judgement and I have shismatic tendencies towards the modern day Church, specifically Vatican 2. How are women allowed on the altar? How are they doing readings, handing out communion when the 1st Epistle of Timothy 2 is clear ?

[11] Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection. [12] But I suffer not a womantto teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence. [13] For Adam was first formed; then Eve. [14] And Adam was not seduced; but the woman being seduced, was in the transgression. [15] Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

I struggle with the obedience it is true. No Church is perfect, but the overwhelming attitude of this age is that we have been released from the old.

Many Catholic men struggle with the new Church, it is made for women, feminized. The pulpit is a place for a warm hug. Examine the teachings of Jesus, yes he taught very beautiful things , he taught us love... but he also rebuked sin and evil. The word "Satan" or the "Devil" don't get spoken from the Pulpits I've heard recently, and they should be. Sexual Sin is a scourge of our time, is it examined and taught? No

Even today in Corona we see how fearful the Church has become, how it trusts in worldly things to maintain its status , Priests roll over to government authorities. When a government tells you you can't give the eucharist, that isn't rendering unto Caesar what is Caesars!

Is my Pride interfering, yes perhaps. But I can't see the other truth right now. The flock has been abandoned, and this includes latin mass parishes including SSPX.

When SSPX opens their doors, and they may be the first, I will gladly go. Yes there may be some high level Vatican document or Canon law that states they are unworthy, perhaps God will count me in the ignorant as described in the article. I just don't get it. One place seems a lot reaeler to me. God gives us ears to hear and eyes to see.
 

Rob Banks

Pelican
↑ The way I see it, the Church is not allowed to change its teachings in order to get with the times.

The Church can change certain things like the exact wording of the liturgy and other (for lack of a better word) insignificant things. The Church can also clarify things (such as interpretations of the Bible) that were previously unclear. But the Church does NOT have the authority to declare its past teachings and dogma to be wrong and impose new teachings and dogma.

The post-Vatican II church literally teaches that sexual sin is not as big a deal as was once believed, that the sexual act is not primarily for procreation, and that anyone of any religion can be saved.

I don't believe that as Catholics (or future Catholics in my case, as I have not yet been baptized) we are forced to obey laws and orders that go against God, and that includes laws and orders coming from the Church itself.

I know for a fact that the Vatican II teachings on sexuality are wrong. It is common sense. Call me prideful, but I struggle to see these changes as anything less than deliberate political subversion disguised as legitimate theology.

NoMoreTO, your description of what goes on in your Novus Ordo church does not surprise me. None of that stuff goes on in my SSPX church. Talking out loud during church? Are you kidding me? At my church, everyone is solemn and reverent when they go for communion. After receiving communion (on the tongue while kneeling), they clasp their hands in prayer and quietly walk back to their pews. there is no talking whatsoever during Mass, and 100% of the women wear veils and 0% wear pants.

Additionally, my priest insists that I attend church weekly until Christmas before he will agree to baptize me. He is also going to pair me up with an older (male) church member who will teach me about the faith and the catechism. At your Novus Ordo church, would they insist on this or would they just baptize whoever wants to be baptized?

Since I will not trade what I have for a liberal Novus Ordo Mass, I feel like my only choices are SSPX or sedevacantism (I guess FSSP is also a thing, but they are not in my area). Sedevacantists believe all popes after Pius XII (who died in 1959) are not true popes. That means all bishops consecrated after 1959 would not really be bishops, and all priests ordained by those bishops are not really priests. That would necessarily mean that pretty soon there would be no priests left and the Church would cease to exist.

For those reasons, I feel like SSPX is the only reasonable option. The only other option would be to believe that the Catholic Church is a failed organization that was successfully brought down my 20th century leftism, and that is not something I want to believe.

P.S. My SSPX church has already opened its doors. They have been holding drive-in Masses at an off-church outdoor location. They have an altar on the back of a truck and everything, and they give out communion. Granted, they needed special permission from the authorities to do this. At other SSPX locations (such as one location 2 hours away from me), I was told they were not giving out Eucharist because local authorities wouldn't allow it.

Mass was cancelled today due to rainy weather in my area, but will resume next week.
 
NoMoreTO said:
There is next to no emphasis on confession, other than Easter which was just skipped?

In their defense, the Roman Church doesn't have enough priests to hear people's confessions regularly. Let me put it this way: the Orthodox parish I attend most often requires everyone to confess every week before communion. And they can do it because there are three priests and about a hundred parishioners. My Roman Catholic aunt goes to a parish with one priest and a thousand people at each Mass - and four masses every weekend! That doesn't even include all the nominal Catholics who don't show up so regularly. There's just no way the padre can hear everyone's confession on a weekly or even monthly basis.

Even in the middle ages when there was a better clergy/laity ratio, in both your church and mine most laypeople confessed and communed only on an annual basis. I suspect some of the other problems you've seen at the Novus Ordo mass aren't really unique to the Novus Ordo. For example, in the medieval West several church councils had to condemn the idea that fornication was only a venial sin - too many people assumed that since their parish priest communed every Sunday despite his live-in girlfriend and three kids, then fornication must not be a big deal. I guess what I'm getting at, is things have always been a mess. Don't let it get you down.
 

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
In their defense, the Roman Church doesn't have enough priests to hear people's confessions regularly. Let me put it this way: the Orthodox parish I attend most often requires everyone to confess every week before communion. And they can do it because there are three priests and about a hundred parishioners. My Roman Catholic aunt goes to a parish with one priest and a thousand people at each Mass - and four masses every weekend! That doesn't even include all the nominal Catholics who don't show up so regularly. There's just no way the padre can hear everyone's confession on a weekly or even monthly basis.

Even in the middle ages when there was a better clergy/laity ratio, in both your church and mine most laypeople confessed and communed only on an annual basis. I suspect some of the other problems you've seen at the Novus Ordo mass aren't really unique to the Novus Ordo. For example, in the medieval West several church councils had to condemn the idea that fornication was only a venial sin - too many people assumed that since their parish priest communed every Sunday despite his live-in girlfriend and three kids, then fornication must not be a big deal. I guess what I'm getting at, is things have always been a mess. Don't let it get you down.

The FSSP Parish I was going to had 3 priests, confessions 1/2 hour before all masses and quite often 2 confessors in the back during Sunday mass.
It also has a Saturday confession hour for people to do that separately.

I agree the issue with Priests is a real one. But, how do young people get a call to the Priesthood where the faith seems to be practiced in such a casual way sometimes. This is what I found in the TLM. There were numerous younger people considering the Priesthood, and a couple went off to live a monastic life. FSSP last I recall had 300 Priests and 150 Seminarians, pretty good stats compared to the diocese.

So part of the solution to having more priests is in the liturgy itself. It also helps if the parents don't contracept and have big families.
 

redbeard

Hummingbird
Moderator
The FSSP Parish I was going to had 3 priests, confessions 1/2 hour before all masses and quite often 2 confessors in the back during Sunday mass.
It also has a Saturday confession hour for people to do that separately.

I agree the issue with Priests is a real one. But, how do young people get a call to the Priesthood where the faith seems to be practiced in such a casual way sometimes. This is what I found in the TLM. There were numerous younger people considering the Priesthood, and a couple went off to live a monastic life. FSSP last I recall had 300 Priests and 150 Seminarians, pretty good stats compared to the diocese.

So part of the solution to having more priests is in the liturgy itself. It also helps if the parents don't contracept and have big families.

Interesting to note as well, that while most dioceses are reporting declining vocations, the FSSP is steadily growing.

Source

chiffre2-1.jpg


Blue - Total members
Red - Definitively incorporated priests
Green - Seminarians (incl. deacons)
 

Robert High Hawk

Kingfisher
Interesting to note as well, that while most dioceses are reporting declining vocations, the FSSP is steadily growing.

Source

chiffre2-1.jpg


Blue - Total members
Red - Definitively incorporated priests
Green - Seminarians (incl. deacons)
The 2 SPPX churches I go to have young and enthusiastic priests. Congregation is pretty robust as well. Very encouraging.
 

Errol

Pigeon
Wanted to see if anyone on this thread has experience with traditional pilgrimages.
I was registered to go to Chartres this year, but unfortunately it was canceled because of the coronavirus nonsense.
Instead, I went on a one day hike/pilgrimage for Pentecost with a traditional priest who prefers to celebrate the latin mass.
It was a good experience, and I'm glad I went, but I would be interested in finding other pilgrimages like Chartres that may exist elsewhere.
Does anyone know of anything similar to Chartres?
Has anyone else here been to the Chartres pilgrimage?
I certainly recommend it for anyone who has an interest in the latin mass, and completed it a couple years ago.
I know for the Orthodox, there are a couple of similar things in Russia, but want to see what else exists that I am not aware of in the western world.

As a post-note, I had dinner with a young FSSP priest last night, and share the sentiment that they are generally very enthusiastic and inspiring.
 
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redbeard

Hummingbird
Moderator
Pretty epic survey results that just came out:


Key takeaways:
  • Average age of TLM attendees - 27.4
  • 45% are converts or reverts
  • 90% of the respondents were not raised from at least the age of 7 in the TLM

img_1070.jpg
 
I remember being around seven, and attending Latin Mass with my mother, for the first time that I could remember. I was touched at the sound of it, and deeply impressed. I felt transported into another world and time. As I got older, I was amazed at how priests in ancient and medieval periods could master a half dozen or more languages, from both the distant past and present. A priest from my mother's parish, was known for being fluent in *nine* different languages! He was handpicked by the pope to be one of his personal assistants. Everyone was so shocked and overjoyed.... Looking back at my memories of him, he felt like how I imagine a Jedi Master! Lol He just needed a light saber...
 
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