The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread

[redbeard]

Here's an interesting take. I was reading some trad-cath propoganda (which you should always take with a grain of salt) and they claimed the Novus Ordo was made to appease protestants. Further - that many of the changes were actually things Luther advocated for centuries ago.

I looked into it and what do you know...this Lutheran service looks eerily similar to a Novus Ordo Mass:

• Sign of peace
• Readers, cantors
• Versus populum
• Female participation
• Vernacular
• Receiving on the hand
• No veils

Obviously many could claim All-Novus-Order-Aren't-Like-That, but there are enough coincidences for me to consider the hypothesis.

 

[Errol]

Reverence is another key takeaway here.
Its the number one thing I hear people say brought them to the Latin Mass, and certainly what attracted me.
I certainly think that is the key aspect for its future growth.

 

[Errol]

I've seen plenty such arguments myself, and agree you should always be somewhat suspicious of why they are making their arguments.
While I think its a little too open to debate and requires further investigation to say the new mass was intended to appease and appeal to protestants, certainly its hard to deny the new mass did in fact protestantize the liturgy and likely lead to a lot of the issues the church faces today.
Certainly versus populum is the most noticeable, orienting the people to the priest and his personality rather than the priest being merely a humble conduit of the people toward God.
Certainly this is reflective of the protestant practice of choosing a church based on personalities rather than dogmatic teachings.
Should it be any surprise then that men with a predilection for a certain vice that is often associated with seeking attention want to be placed in such positions?
Anyway, its not hard to make similar arguments on all the other points either, but I'll just say the sign of peace always struck me as some hippy-dippy liberal sixties shit even as a child.
I'll also say, I've attended some truly reverent novus ordo masses, and its striking how much those masses were the exception rather than the rule of standard blandness.

 

[Crunchyeater]

Most aspects of why I love the Trad Latin Mass have already been addressed, but one that I feel is particularly important to emphasize is that your fellow Catholics at TLM are likely to be more zealous and enthusiastic about leading a catholic life, and that external pressure is so, so helpful for someone like me who has only embraced God in the past couple years.

I lose motivation in my spiritual endeavors when those around me aren't as devoted as I am, so these real hardcore Catholics are a great influence.

After all, if you are who you hang around, aim to be around holy folks!

 

[MovingForward2050]

Does anyone do the Mass in Aramaic? I would deeply enjoy witnessing such a ceremony, and thinking about how this was the language Jesus spoke.

And then Klingon, High Valyrian, Esperanto, Dothraki, Na' Vi, and Elvish. It might seem outlandish, but it could be a good way to attract people to attend Mass, who have not gone in a long time. The geek/fandom crowd would love it.

 

[Царь Николай I]

Does anyone do the Mass in Aramaic?

I think not. Aramaic people are part of the Syrian Orthodox Church and their Divine Liturgy is part Aramaic and old Aramaic. Not all Aramaics understand old Aramaic since it is very different from modern Aramaic. If you find a Syrian Orthodox Church that is run by an Aramaic community, you can have your full experience. Finding one in the Philippines may be next to impossible.

 

[Errol]

Most aspects of why I love the Trad Latin Mass have already been addressed, but one that I feel is particularly important to emphasize is that your fellow Catholics at TLM are likely to be more zealous and enthusiastic about leading a catholic life, and that external pressure is so, so helpful for someone like me who has only embraced God in the past couple years.

I lose motivation in my spiritual endeavors when those around me aren't as devoted as I am, so these real hardcore Catholics are a great influence.

After all, if you are who you hang around, aim to be around holy folks!

This is so true.
For the first time in my life I actually have easy access to several young very devout and orthodox priests.
Most of them don't socialize much with younger guys outside the church, and so are more than happy to know someone who tries to live church teaching and is glad to buy them a beer.
It's a real inspiration to see them do the work they do and know that you can in some small way support their endeavor.
Not all of them are "traditionalists" but the TLM parishes are definitely where you find the young families who are open to serving God through their children.
While hopefully that ship hasn't sailed for me quite yet, they provide some of the best inspiration I have encountered to live virtuously and aspire to serve Christ through the example they provide.

 

[NoMoreTO]

I will likely go to a diocesan latin mass this Sunday as I'm having trouble getting details on timing of the SSPX masses a little further away.

The FSSP in Ottawa diocese have been given an exemption on this, but the local Diocesan latin mass isn't having communion as it is only allowed on the hand! I will go anyway as I need to re establish my Sunday worship.

Essentially from below, you can't receive communion on the hand in the Latin Mass by Church Law so no communion - not that latin mass goers would receive this way , but perhaps at a diocesan they would.

Confessions are in the garage, so strange.

Dear people

Thank you for taking the time to register for the Traditional Latin Mass at ...

I want to send the following information to make you are aware of the situation the Traditional Latin Mass faces, especially concerning reception of Holy Communion, during this time of pandemic.

We received the following directive from the Ontario Bishops last week

“Upon the strong recommendation of medical authorities, Holy Communion is received only in the hand at this time. (Since each communicant has the right to receive communion either on the tongue or in the hand, the traditional practice of the option of receiving on the tongue will be restored as soon as the public health situation allows for that). Communicants are instructed to remove their masks, using the straps and without touching the front of their masks, while the person ahead of them is receiving Holy Communion.”

Borrowing from the Latin Mass Society of England and Wales (LMS)

The LMS warned that “according to the universal liturgical law applicable to [the Traditional Latin Mass]”, Communion in the hand is not permissible. If the bishops suspend Communion on the tongue, it would therefore mean that Communion cannot be distributed to the congregation in the Old Rite.

“The Communion of the Faithful is in no way necessary to the validity or liceity (lawfulness or legitimacy) (in such circumstances) of the Mass,” the LMS pointed out. “Should prudence dictate the necessity for such a step, the Faithful should be encouraged to make a ‘Spiritual Communion’.

Some may ask “why can’t people receive from the hand at the Traditional Latin Mass?” To this question I offer the following instruction from the Roman Catholic Church:

Universae Ecclesiae (2011)
Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei
INSTRUCTION
For the Carrying Out of the Apostolic Letter Summorum Pontificum, given Motu Proprio by His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI


On Liturgical and Ecclesiastical Discipline
24. The liturgical books of the forma extraordinaria (Extraordinary Form, Traditional Latin Mass) are to be used as they stand. All who choose to celebrate according to the forma extraordinaria of the Roman Rite are required to know the pertinent rubrics and to follow them correctly in celebrations.
28. Furthermore, since it is of course dealt with by special law, in respect of its own subject matter, the Apostolic Letter Summorum Pontificum derogates (deviates) from all liturgical laws that belong to the sacred rites, promulgated from the year 1962 onwards, and not coinciding with the rubrics of the liturgical books of the year 1962

As a priest of the Roman Catholic Church I have the responsibility to obedience of my Ordinary (Local Bishop) and am obliged to submit to the direction of the Church when celebrating the Sacred Rites of the Mass. Bishop Fabbro, being one of the Ontario bishops, has directed, as stated above, that Holy Communion is received only in the hand at this time. As well, I cannot deviate from the instructions given by the Church, in this case the Holy Mass, and risk perversion of the Sacred Rites, whether it be the Extraordinary Form (Traditional Latin Mass) or the Ordinary Form (Novus Ordo,“new order of the Mass” or Mass of Paul VI)

Given this, and it pains me to say, there will not be Holy Communion offered at the Traditional Latin Mass at St. Anne’s while under the directives of the Ontario Bishops.

I know there is sadness among those who attend the Traditional Latin Mass, however you are people of profound hope and deep faith.

Let us be thankful we can attend the Holy Mass.

Once, St. Teresa was overwhelmed with God’s Goodness and asked Our Lord “How can I thank you?” Our Lord replied, “ATTEND ONE MASS.” —- St Teresa of Avila

It would be easier for the world to survive without the sun than to do without Holy Mass. —— St. Pio of Pietrelcina

Sacrament of Confession

Confessions will take place in XYZ garage (I know not the best place however with the church being occupied by volunteers and faithful we need adequate space and open air) My vehicle (Jeep) will act as a barrier to ensure privacy. I cannot mandate you wear a mask, however for the protection of all, I would encourage. I will take the proper measures to sanitize after each confession.

 

[Errol]

Diocesan latin masses are fine in my experience, so definitely check it out.
I primarily attend a diocesan latin mass out of convenience in a very liberal city with a typically liberal bishop who has strongly prohibited receiving communion on the tongue.
I was shocked when this mass started again a couple weeks ago to see them carry out the altar rail and all the people queue up to kneel to receive on the tongue (btw unquestionably the most hygienic means of receiving between you and the priest).
I went to an early weekday morning english mass in the same chapel and opened my mouth for a priest I didn't think would refuse it, and he acted repulsed and offended I would do such a thing, so the brainwashing is strong, even with good priests.
Anyway, this mass is mostly attended by old folks who have probably never gone to a new mass in their lives and the occasional young person who is curious to see it, so it definitely lacks the same community I can find in the FSSP parishes I also visit, but is otherwise very reverent and beautiful.
If the priest at your mass is forgoing distributing communion, I think that is also a very effective way for him to communicate his dissent with the bishops, and think your letter above is a respectful example of him doing so.
Taylor Marshall has talked recently that traditionally communion was only received by laity several times a year, and while it should be regarded as a significant grace to be able to receive now at mass, perhaps it is worth the laity considering bringing this practice back and only receiving from very reverent priests:

 

[NoMoreTO]

It could have been any Priest but it happened to be a FSSP Latin Mass Priest.


FSSP Priest Delivers Last Rites in Rainy Car Crash

 

[stugatz]

Does anyone do the Mass in Aramaic? I would deeply enjoy witnessing such a ceremony, and thinking about how this was the language Jesus spoke.

Syriac is awfully close - so if you catch a Maronite Catholic mass, or a Syriac Orthodox divine liturgy, it should be about as close as you can get.

Or an Assyrian mass - those are definitely in the US, and they have Catholic counterparts (Chaldean Catholic church).

 

[NoMoreTO]

 

[NoMoreTO]

Syriac is awfully close - so if you catch a Maronite Catholic mass, or a Syriac Orthodox divine liturgy, it should be about as close as you can get.

Or an Assyrian mass - those are definitely in the US, and they have Catholic counterparts (Chaldean Catholic church).

I would love to go to some of these masses. I would venture that they are all far more similar to a Tridentine Mass than a Novus Ordo

 

[Robert High Hawk]

Syriac is awfully close - so if you catch a Maronite Catholic mass, or a Syriac Orthodox divine liturgy, it should be about as close as you can get.

Or an Assyrian mass - those are definitely in the US, and they have Catholic counterparts (Chaldean Catholic church).

I went to a Chaldean Catholic Service once a couple times. It was really nice actually, especially seeing the cultural unity in the church. Music was interesting too.

 

[BadWhite]

I started going to a Traditional Latin Mass (SSPX) church last week. It was recommended to me by a forum member on another thread.

However, I have been watching/reading sedevacantist videos and websites, and their opinion seems to be that the SSPX position of "recognize & resist" (i.e. recognize the post-Vatican II popes but resist their heretical teachings) is wrong. One sedevacantist priest was even saying that he is theologically closer to Novus Ordo churches than SSPX churches because both he and the Novus Ordo churches recognize the fact that Catholics must submit to the pope (when there is one), whereas SSPX believes that it is OK for Catholics to recognize the pope but not submit to his authority.

I was wondering what do traditional Catholics think about this?

He's correct and the "recognize-and-resist" position is wrong and logically untenable.
Most of us went through a process before arriving at the sedevacantist position, it usually goes something like this....
Conservative Novus Ordo--> Diocesan "indult" Latin Mass/FSSP--> SSPX--> Sedevacantist. Bergoglio has forced a lot of people, myself included, to look into sedevacantism whereas before they wouldn't have given it a serious thought. But it's SUCH a huge relief once you see things in perspective and I went through several years where I gave up on religion altogether and was basically agnostic (and depressed about it)...Now I am more firm and on fire for the one true Roman Catholic faith than ever before and sedevacantism makes absolutely perfect sense, the truth is crystal clear to me (hit me like a lightning bolt really, after reading some of Fr. Cekada's stuff). I think previously, I wasn't willing to consider sedevacantism because it seemed too catastrophic, too much of an apocalyptic type scenario, and I had always pictured that the Church would just somehow work things out and just get back to it's pre-1958 position sooner or later and all would be well and good...Well, the state of the world in these last few years have made me realize that we ARE in a near-apocalypse, End Times sort of state and I had been in denial about it...In this case, the sedevacantist position makes perfect sense...we were always told that towards the end, when antichrist was around the corner, the Church would be eclipsed, there would be a massive worldwide apostasy from the faith, such that when Christ returns there would be only a few faithful left (Think ye, when the Son of man returns, will he find faith on the earth?") etc.

 

[Advorsor]

Slightly off-topic but thought this could go here without creating a new thread. I have a question which my father also pondered with his faith (he went to Mass 2-3 times a week later in his life).

Maybe this is a simple question for some of you but here it goes:

If someone is repentant for their sins/wrongdoing, is Hell actually an option? I understand some may be unrepentant, but is a God who loves us so much actually capable of condemning someone to eternal suffering?

 

[NoMoreTO]

If someone is repentant for their sins/wrongdoing, is Hell actually an option? I understand some may be unrepentant, but is a God who loves us so much actually capable of condemning someone to eternal suffering?

Perfect Contrition accomplishes this. Without Perfect Contrition and/or a Confession, Hell is possible. Ultimately, with these things we find out where everyone is when we die - including ourselves. There is no way to know who is in heaven and who isn't, only God knows. Our focus should be on our own salvation.

Also, remember you can pray for your Father even now, after his passing. God is outside of time, so the prayers aid him at the time when he most needed contrition & God's grace.

 

[TXbro]

I went to my first Latin Mass about a year ago. I also went to Confession (hadn't been to Confession in about 15+years) prior to the Mass and the Priest asked if I was living with a woman. I said yes and he said he couldn't hear my confession until I wasn't living with her. At first I was kind of shocked but then I told him I understood and he said he would pray for me during the Mass.

I still felt great after going even though I couldn't Confess. I moved back down to South America and haven't been to Confession since but I need to get on it.

 

[KiwiCatholic]

I went to my first Latin Mass about a year ago. I also went to Confession (hadn't been to Confession in about 15+years) prior to the Mass and the Priest asked if I was living with a woman. I said yes and he said he couldn't hear my confession until I wasn't living with her. At first I was kind of shocked but then I told him I understood and he said he would pray for me during the Mass.

I still felt great after going even though I couldn't Confess. I moved back down to South America and haven't been to Confession since but I need to get on it.

Yes you do. If you die in a state of mortal sin you will burn in hell for all eternity. And death may come at any moment.

 

[TXbro]

Yes you do. If you die in a state of mortal sin you will burn in hell for all eternity. And death may come at any moment.

I mentioned the Most Holy Family Monastery guys in this thread. They said that any Confession, as well as Baptism, heard by a Novus Ordo priest is invalid. On their site they say that the priest that would be able to validly hear a Confession would need to have been ordained in the mid 1960’s or prior. I can’t imagine there are very many priests left from that era.

This is where I get confused. What are your thoughts.