The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread

SilentCal

Robin
They are wrong, especially on Baptism. It is the traditional teaching of the Church that any Baptism is valid so long as the right words are said. Even a Jew or Muslim can baptise someone, if the right form is used. That is not to say that Baptism by a priest is not preferred, along with Catechism formation for adults. On confession, the real question is whether the priest was validly ordained. If he was not validly ordained, he is not a priest and therefore cannot forgive sins. Although the Novus Ordo rite of Holy Orders may have problems, it is still valid. Many good traditionalists, such as Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Williamson hold this position.
I’m not sure if this is quite right, because you also need to intend to do what the Church intends to do, which seems to be impossible if you don’t have faith in Christ, meaning a non-Christian Jew or Muslim couldn’t baptize.
 

Sitting Bull

Woodpecker
any law assumes that there is a possible reference to an intelligent and final authority that is able to speak on the matter

For Divine Law, the intelligent and final authority is God, and he can indeed "speak" in a sense, but not necessarily at once or on-demand, and not like humans.

it seems that the word "automatically" doesn't appear in the English translation of canon 2314 of the 1917 code

Which translation, reference please ? I tried to find an authorized translation online and couldn't find one.

Most disputes, like the one you referenced, can be easily resolved by simply looking back at the teachings of the magisterium, and that's what we're normally supposed to do.

You're trying to have it both ways. You started by saying that I'm wrong because I don't have your living judges. Then I pointed out that your (allegedly) living judges don't judge anything, and you're now claiming that you don't need living judges because you have the magisterium.

By the way, claiming that the culture war over gay marriage and gay privilege (a gigantic war which involves countless battles and victims, for example people who lose their jobs or get ostracized) can be "resolved by simply looking back at the magisterium" is one of the most disconnected-from-reality claims I ever read. You must be living on Mars, or on some faraway island.
 

TXbro

Sparrow
Gold Member
They are wrong, especially on Baptism. It is the traditional teaching of the Church that any Baptism is valid so long as the right words are said. Even a Jew or Muslim can baptise someone, if the right form is used. That is not to say that Baptism by a priest is not preferred, along with Catechism formation for adults. On confession, the real question is whether the priest was validly ordained. If he was not validly ordained, he is not a priest and therefore cannot forgive sins. Although the Novus Ordo rite of Holy Orders may have problems, it is still valid. Many good traditionalists, such as Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Williamson hold this position.

So is a Novus Ordo priest valid? I’m kind of confused. You mentioned that I should go to confession when I brought it up and if there are no validly ordained priests, how is it even possible?
 

TXbro

Sparrow
Gold Member
I contacted an FSSP priest and he said I would be able to go in for a confession. This would be a reserved time since I haven’t gone in many many years.

I recall someone mention that FSSP is not Catholic or is schismatic. Should I still go?

Also, what is the correct way to do a confession? How specific do I need to get with the priest? Would sex outside of marriage just be “I committed sexual immorality?”
 

SilentCal

Robin
So is a Novus Ordo priest valid? I’m kind of confused. You mentioned that I should go to confession when I brought it up and if there are no validly ordained priests, how is it even possible?
Yes @TXbro , they are valid. Those who claim they aren’t are (generally) sedevacantists. Unfortunately you are being introduced to an esoteric fringe debate within “trad” Catholicism by asking in this forum. Those who claim to be Catholic and also claim that Novus Ordo priests are invalid are in a vanishingly small minority. Feel free to go to confession with a Novus Ordo or FSSP priest, it will work. Neither are schismatic.
 

redbeard

Hummingbird
Gold Member
I contacted an FSSP priest and he said I would be able to go in for a confession. This would be a reserved time since I haven’t gone in many many years.

I recall someone mention that FSSP is not Catholic or is schismatic. Should I still go?

Also, what is the correct way to do a confession? How specific do I need to get with the priest? Would sex outside of marriage just be “I committed sexual immorality?”
You should 100% go. This is called a general confession, I did it when I was coming back to the Church. It took about an hour and was a major turning point in my faith.

The first thing to do is ask your priest for guidance. He should be able to answer your questions and provide resources to help.

In the meantime...

Read up on how to go to confession. There are a million articles out there, here's one to start:

Next you'll want to do a strong & thorough examination of conscience. This is when you reflect on your life up to today and recount all of your sins. Everything.

My priest recommended I take a few days to go through several different examination resources and really figure out where I went wrong. I recommend you take 30 minutes each day, turn off the electronics, read through some examination of consciences, and write down what sins you've committed. The more effort you put in now, the less you'll have to think about sins you may or may not have forgotten.

Yes, write it down. I came in with pages worth of sins to confess, organized by which commandment I had broken. You'll want to write it down so you don't forget when you're in the confessional. You'll also want to write down the number of mortal sins, as this is necessary for absolution.

Here's a few examination of consciences -



And a thorough walkthrough video:

Lastly, be diligent, but don't worry too much. It's likely you're rusty at confession and will have plenty of room for improvement. But remember, your priest knows you've been away for years, so be patient with yourself.

At the end of my general confession my priest recommended I always consider the great Saints of the Church who were once great sinners - like Paul & Augustine - and think of them when I'm struggling against the flesh. Keep this in mind if you're prone to beating yourself up.

And of course please don't hestiate to reach out if there's anything I could do to help. You're about to undergo a big challenge but the reward is well worth the work.
 
I contacted an FSSP priest and he said I would be able to go in for a confession. This would be a reserved time since I haven’t gone in many many years.

I recall someone mention that FSSP is not Catholic or is schismatic. Should I still go?

Also, what is the correct way to do a confession? How specific do I need to get with the priest? Would sex outside of marriage just be “I committed sexual immorality?”
Neither the FSSP, nor the SSPX are schismatic. Both are in full communion with the Church. There is no such thing as “partial communion”, you are either in, or out. This is a false assertion from liberals pretending to be Catholics. Novus Ordo priests are valid, but it is very dangerous to attend Mass at a Novus Ordo. Most people there are complete heretics and not Catholic. A large portion of them will support Joe Biden. None of the women wear veils, despite Holy Scripture (which is infallible) instructing to. Also, you will likely get far better guidance to become a Catholic from a traditional priest.
When I converted I went to a Novus Ordo Mass for the first few times. I had never been to a Catholic Mass in my life, and even then I could still realise something was deeply wrong when people were taking selfies, clapping like some Protestant church, girls serving the altar, and lay people preaching. I was disgusted. Quickly I found the Latin Mass parish in my city, it’s diocesan, similar to FSSP although not FSSP. Best decision I ever made.
 

nagareboshi

Woodpecker
There’s no such thing as “the Traditional Latin Mass”. It’s just called “The Mass”. Every time you use the word “traditional” you give ammunition to modernists to control the narrative and make you look like some ancient nutcase.

Real traditional people are too busy living life to call it tradition. They just call it “reality”.
 
There’s no such thing as “the Traditional Latin Mass”. It’s just called “The Mass”. Every time you use the word “traditional” you give ammunition to modernists to control the narrative and make you look like some ancient nutcase.

Real traditional people are too busy living life to call it tradition. They just call it “reality”.
In the same sense, we really shouldn’t call ourselves “traditional” Catholics. We are simply Catholics, any “Catholic” with views differing from us is most likely not a Catholic, but a heretic.
 
There’s no such thing as “the Traditional Latin Mass”. It’s just called “The Mass”. Every time you use the word “traditional” you give ammunition to modernists to control the narrative and make you look like some ancient nutcase.

Real traditional people are too busy living life to call it tradition. They just call it “reality”.
I use the term "Latin Mass" when I tell which I attend. I believe most will believe you are a nutcase irregardless of what term you use. Most people do not understand the holiness of tradition and a liturgical language, they don't even understand the concept of holiness. Our world is very "pragmatic" and expects instant-gratification. "Why learn Latin? Why attend a service where I don't understand anything? Why do I need to do all these rituals?" etc. etc.
 

TXbro

Sparrow
Gold Member
I finally made it to confession a couple of weeks ago. It was pretty straightfoward. Although I was nervous, I read off my sins that I wrote down. He then spoke about why sex outside of marriage is bad and elaborated on it for about 15 minutes. He was extremely helpful.

I met him personally after the mass and he knew who I was because I contacted him so it wasn't anonymous. Lack of anonymity didn't bother me though.
 

redbeard

Hummingbird
Gold Member
I finally made it to confession a couple of weeks ago. It was pretty straightfoward. Although I was nervous, I read off my sins that I wrote down. He then spoke about why sex outside of marriage is bad and elaborated on it for about 15 minutes. He was extremely helpful.

I met him personally after the mass and he knew who I was because I contacted him so it wasn't anonymous. Lack of anonymity didn't bother me though.
Great work. Glad to hear.
 
I finally made it to confession a couple of weeks ago. It was pretty straightfoward. Although I was nervous, I read off my sins that I wrote down. He then spoke about why sex outside of marriage is bad and elaborated on it for about 15 minutes. He was extremely helpful.

I met him personally after the mass and he knew who I was because I contacted him so it wasn't anonymous. Lack of anonymity didn't bother me though.
Good job brother.
 

Augustus_Principe

Woodpecker
Neither the FSSP, nor the SSPX are schismatic. Both are in full communion with the Church. There is no such thing as “partial communion”, you are either in, or out. This is a false assertion from liberals pretending to be Catholics. Novus Ordo priests are valid, but it is very dangerous to attend Mass at a Novus Ordo. Most people there are complete heretics and not Catholic. A large portion of them will support Joe Biden. None of the women wear veils, despite Holy Scripture (which is infallible) instructing to. Also, you will likely get far better guidance to become a Catholic from a traditional priest.
When I converted I went to a Novus Ordo Mass for the first few times. I had never been to a Catholic Mass in my life, and even then I could still realise something was deeply wrong when people were taking selfies, clapping like some Protestant church, girls serving the altar, and lay people preaching. I was disgusted. Quickly I found the Latin Mass parish in my city, it’s diocesan, similar to FSSP although not FSSP. Best decision I ever made.

Most sensible response here. While some NO liturgies may be said “reverently”, it doesn’t take away from the fact that it was created to appeal to prots, among other nefarious reasons. For that reason, I will never attend and participate in an NO mass. No matter how “reverent” it may be said...The last time I did was a few years back before my return to the faith this year.

Unfortunately the vast majority of Catholics in NO parishes will be liberal Catholics. Contrast this with a Traditional parish where virtually all of those attending are conservative and are actually following traditional church teachings.

If you would like to learn more about the changes that occurred after Vatican II, check out this documentary.


I will also agree with others that attending and finding a TLM is more important than getting into the semantics of whether associating with the Vatican (like FSSP or ICKSP ) makes them invalid. I think that’s too far. I attended an FSSP mass recently while on vacation and was very impressed by the laity and priest. Very traditional. I personally go to an SSPX church. Ideally you would want to find an SSPX church because they do not have to adhere to the rules the diocesan puts in place, ie mask mandate, no holy water entrance of church, appointments for Christmas mass etc. I am thankful my church is based and has not followed any of the regulations instituted by my diocese. Otherwise I would not have been able to attend midnight mass Christmas Eve.
 

Lavabis Me

Sparrow
It's also worth noting that the SSPX bishops excommunicated by the Econe consecrations were reversed in 2009:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Écône_consecrations#Lifting_of_excommunications
Here are links to a series of articles on the SSPX at the Fatima Center. They delve into most of the questions a Catholic could have. I'd like to humbly suggest that anyone with questions about the SSPX and whether they are "in" the Church read these articles and then decide. They are fairly short and succinct:
  1. https://fatima.org/news-views/may-i-attend-sspx-masses/
  2. https://fatima.org/news-views/the-sspx-is-not-in-schism/
  3. https://fatima.org/news-views/sspx-is-in-communion-with-rome/
  4. https://fatima.org/news-views/irregular-canonical-status/
  5. https://fatima.org/news-views/sspx-jurisdiction/
  6. https://fatima.org/news-views/sspx-jurisdiction-and-state-of-necessity-part-ii/
  7. https://fatima.org/news-views/who-was-marcel-lefebvre/
 

Lavabis Me

Sparrow
Other than in the Vatican itself, I don't see the appeal of a Mass in Latin. My ancestors fought hard for the right to conduct the mass in their native languages over 1000 years ago so that all of their people would be able to understand the Word. Why abandon that?
"I don't see the appeal of the Mass in Latin"
"My ancestors fought hard for the right to conduct the mass in their native language over 1000 years ago... Why abandon that?"

Do you see the contradiction in your two sentences? You make an appeal to a 1000 year old tradition to argue against the appeal of the Mass in Latin... which is a 1600 year old tradition.

I'm not arguing that the language of the Rite your ancestors established should be changed (1000 years!); what I am saying is that you are right in that tradition should be cherished; and therein lies one of many reasons why the Roman Rite should be said in Latin.
 

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
Handsome Creepy Eel said:
Other than in the Vatican itself, I don't see the appeal of a Mass in Latin. My ancestors fought hard for the right to conduct the mass in their native languages over 1000 years ago so that all of their people would be able to understand the Word. Why abandon that?

The Latin is really only part of it. The order and the process I would say is the priority. eg. Ad Orientum, Incense, Tradition in the prayer order and readings.

I come across this comment from people who attend the New Mass, or Older types who used to go as kids and didn't understand what was going on. In the end, it is the change of the order that is key. At least in my mind.

On Another note, while I am so sad that so Many Churches are closed. I am happy to say the SSPX near me is having sacramental mass appointments of 10 people at a time. Quite Courageous. God Bless
 

Lavabis Me

Sparrow
The Latin is really only part of it. The order and the process I would say is the priority. eg. Ad Orientum, Incense, Tradition in the prayer order and readings.

I come across this comment from people who attend the New Mass, or Older types who used to go as kids and didn't understand what was going on. In the end, it is the change of the order that is key. At least in my mind.

On Another note, while I am so sad that so Many Churches are closed. I am happy to say the SSPX near me is having sacramental mass appointments of 10 people at a time. Quite Courageous. God Bless.
One way to think of the Mass is as great poem: the great poet sweats - sometimes for years - over every detail. Every word, every punctuation carries with it a meaning. All superfluity is purged, until the result is something that is a near-perfect representation of the poet's mind. So it is with the Mass: every word gesture, and posture came down through the centuries and was put there on purpose to reflect a reality.

Many people think the Latin of the Mass was just the common tongue of the time. It was not. That is a deceit planted by enemies of the Church and repeated unknowingly by some of the faithful. It was created specifically for the Liturgy. Christine Mohrmann was a Classicist from the last century and she proved that Liturgical Latin - as well as Liturgical Greek - were never vernaculars, i.e.; the common tongue. Both were created to be archaic, hieratic (sacred), and formal. It was not how "folks talked back then".

Liturgical Latin also carries (obviously) a very Roman character. It encapsulated what was best and most admirable about pagan Rome: it's juridical precision and painstaking exactness toward the gods. It was not meant to be understood easily by the common man: how can mysteries be conveyed if they are perfectly understood? Then they are no longer mysteries. The ancients understood this much better. Modern post-Enlightenment man thinks anything that cannot be grasped by his five senses is not worthy of his time. He hates mystery, most especially sacred mystery, and that is why Latin was purged from the Mass.
 
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