The Vox Day thread

muscacav

Robin
Other Christian
All the cowards and incels on Gab were triggered by this.

The future belongs to those who show up for it. Stop whining. Start fighting by getting married, having children, and planting the acorns of the trees in whose shade your grandchildren will play. Yes, there are risks. You might get your heart broken. You might lose half your toys. So what? Action requires risk and risk is inherent to life.

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There is no point in whining, blackpilling, or worrying about things you can’t possibly control. If you’re not willing to take risks to build the future, if you’re not willing to live, if you’re not willing to set your face against the entropy of the universe, then you are irrelevant and your inferior genetic line will end with you, due to your cowardly narcissism.
What do you think? In the respective Gab's thread you can find a hot debate about it.

 

Hermetic Seal

Pelican
Orthodox
Gold Member
I agree with the general sentiment of the meme, but this really highlights a long-time issue I've had with Vox, in that his ultimate end goal is European nationalism, with Christianity just a useful tool for achieving that end. Can you really read stuff like this (or 10+ years of Vox, as I did) and not conclude that the most important thing to him is lots of white people more than the spread of Christian faith and salvation?

People with this mentality are the sort that repress monasticism because from a purely materialistic, pragmatic nationalist perspective, monks are a drain on society because they aren't reproducing, just a "dead end." (I am not a historical expert on this topic but I'm guessing that you heard these sorts of arguments during the reformation in favor of dismantling monasteries.) It is only in traditional Orthodox Christian belief that there is any hope for those of an "inferior genetic line" who might fail to marry or reproduce.
 

Elipe

Ostrich
Protestant
I agree with the general sentiment of the meme, but this really highlights a long-time issue I've had with Vox, in that his ultimate end goal is European nationalism, with Christianity just a useful tool for achieving that end. Can you really read stuff like this (or 10+ years of Vox, as I did) and not conclude that the most important thing to him is lots of white people more than the spread of Christian faith and salvation?

People with this mentality are the sort that repress monasticism because from a purely materialistic, pragmatic nationalist perspective, monks are a drain on society because they aren't reproducing, just a "dead end." (I am not a historical expert on this topic but I'm guessing that you heard these sorts of arguments during the reformation in favor of dismantling monasteries.) It is only in traditional Orthodox Christian belief that there is any hope for those of an "inferior genetic line" who might fail to marry or reproduce.
The perfect is not the enemy of the good. And whether you like it or not, you should admit to yourself that you really do prefer living in an European-style society. And how do you get that kind of society? With Europeans. I won't lie, I like my flushing indoor plumbing and I like that I can cause a room to light up with the flick of a switch. Maybe it's worldly and maybe God is calling us to lose it all so that we can learn what real life is, not as an abstraction disconnected from the hardships of survival. But that doesn't change the fact that you, I, and Vox Day are all products of Western civilization, and in a sense, we owe it to our ancestors to pass it on to our progenies.

Vox's comment/meme is less directed at the sorts of people that show up on RVF as Orthodox catechumens and more directed at the angry men who keep insisting that it's not worth risking marriage because all women are lying gold digging whores that will just steal half your assets within 5 years of marriage. His comments were more directed at the "enjoy the decline" type of thinker, because they ought not to be "enjoying the decline" but working to reverse the decline or at least preserve some kind of bubble of non-decline in their local communities. A lot of people on RVF used to be those angry men. Thank God that we've had the scales fall from our eyes.

There is room for monks to preserve the knowledge and wisdom of greater times, and there is room for the common man and woman to produce descendants to preserve the blood to benefit from that knowledge and wisdom.
 

Carolus

Sparrow
Protestant
Vox also probably hasn't been to the US in awhile and thinks there are more marriagable women running around than there are. I remember some very out of touch blog posts on this before Covid happened. Guys tried to point out that there were significant practical problems to getting married and were shouted down in the comments by Vox and his army seriously mentally deficient moderators.
 
What do you think? In the respective Gab's thread you can find a hot debate about it.

I don't like this boomer esque dismissive attitude he has towards incels. Its easy for a guy who was born into a rich family(his dad is worth 20 million) to get married during a time before social media inflated female hypergamy and then talk down to the young men of today living through hell. Its expected though, it seems even Christian men can't shake the urge to climb to social ladder by kicking men below them, its easier than offering actual wisdom or guidance instead of empty platitudes and shaming rhetoric.
 
Vox also probably hasn't been to the US in awhile and thinks there are more marriagable women running around than there are. I remember some very out of touch blog posts on this before Covid happened. Guys tried to point out that there were significant practical problems to getting married and were shouted down in the comments by Vox and his army seriously mentally deficient moderators.
He hasn't been in the dating game since the first episode of Seinfeld premiered, things have changed a lot. His social circles are other people around his age maybe even older who are just as out of touch and reaffirm his opinions on this constantly. The irony is calling young men losers or incels just makes them walk away even more, I'd love to see him have a post just for once holding women accountable for a change.
 

Enoch

Hummingbird
I don't like this boomer esque dismissive attitude he has towards incels. Its easy for a guy who was born into a rich family(his dad is worth 20 million) to get married during a time before social media inflated female hypergamy and then talk down to the young men of today living through hell. Its expected though, it seems even Christian men can't shake the urge to climb to social ladder by kicking men below them, its easier than offering actual wisdom or guidance instead of empty platitudes and shaming rhetoric.
Where do you get the net worth number for his father? I believe his dad was sentenced to prison for tax evasion and subject to asset forfeiture as part of the sentencing.
 

Easy_C

Peacock
I don't like this boomer esque dismissive attitude he has towards incels. Its easy for a guy who was born into a rich family(his dad is worth 20 million) to get married during a time before social media inflated female hypergamy and then talk down to the young men of today living through hell. Its expected though, it seems even Christian men can't shake the urge to climb to social ladder by kicking men below them, its easier than offering actual wisdom or guidance instead of empty platitudes and shaming rhetoric.

Kicking at men he perceives as below him is half of Vox's schtick (e.g. every rant about "Gamma males"), and it's why impressionable people think he's smart.

For example his piece about "is this why the narrative change" is basically parroting what Gonzalo Lira said about the topic. Except of course without crediting him.

That said I don't recommend giving up entirely. Just because you're not guaranteed to succeed does not mean you shouldn't try. Depending on what the goal is, sometimes even being not likely or very unlikely to succeed does not mean the effort should not be made.
 

Easy_C

Peacock
The perfect is not the enemy of the good. And whether you like it or not, you should admit to yourself that you really do prefer living in an European-style society. And how do you get that kind of society? With Europeans. I won't lie, I like my flushing indoor plumbing and I like that I can cause a room to light up with the flick of a switch. Maybe it's worldly and maybe God is calling us to lose it all so that we can learn what real life is, not as an abstraction disconnected from the hardships of survival. But that doesn't change the fact that you, I, and Vox Day are all products of Western civilization, and in a sense, we owe it to our ancestors to pass it on to our progenies.

The essence of Western Civilization isn't creature comforts. The true "essence" of Western civilization is the concept of the rule of law + Christian teachings on human dignity. This means people need to be treated in accordance with rules, fairly under the law, and with an underlying element of reciprocity.

Neither the pagan not Hebrew religions offer that aspect. Both take a worldview where humans are not vested with intrinsic value (and thus need to be treated as equal before the law), but are instead playthings of the gods to be used as how either the gods or those chosen by the gods see fit.
 

Pantheon

Robin
Orthodox
Kicking at men he perceives as below him is half of Vox's schtick (e.g. every rant about "Gamma males"), and it's why impressionable people think he's smart.
He seems to look down on everyone who isn't some sort of math wizard. I can't think anything more beta. Math is useful but it's not omniscient. Spiritual qualities like intuition and wisdom (perfected in the saints) are superior to rational qualities since they see all at once (which is why saints can prophesize about the future). Yet, saints never exhibit any sense of superiority. Nerds however are often prideful in their knowledge and weaponize it. That's why it's called the revenge of the nerds. In fact, when math and science triumphed over philosophy and theology the nerds took over civilization. The bean-counters became thought leaders.
 
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Elipe

Ostrich
Protestant
The essence of Western Civilization isn't creature comforts. The true "essence" of Western civilization is the concept of the rule of law + Christian teachings on human dignity. This means people need to be treated in accordance with rules, fairly under the law, and with an underlying element of reciprocity.
More precisely, what we commonly call Western Civilization is based in the Anglo-Saxon tradition, buttressed by Greco-Roman philosophy, centuries of common law, and Christianity. Not all Christian nations were Westernized or advanced as much as the Western nations did. You can't repeat the recipe that produced Western Civilization in Africa or in China or among indigenous tribes. You just get a Christianized version of those civilizations and tribes, but it's not going to look like what it did in Europe because Europeans also had a way of life that merged very effectively with Christianity to produce a civilization unlike anything the world had experienced.

Christian China would still have social credit, it'd just be social credit in favor of Christianity and a Christian-flavored CCP that aggressively enforces it to shut down heresies. Christian Africa would still look like... well... Africa. Just with a lot less cannibalism.

I don't think race is more important than Christ or anything like that, but I also think it's a mistake to try to erase race as a concept. The Kingdom of Heaven isn't just "one race - the human race," it's multiple races, tribes, peoples, tongues under one King. God likes biodiversity, it's why He created so many different kinds of animals and designed life to differentiate into even more species and subspecies. It's why God appoints the times and borders of the nations.

The Lord's command was to be fruitful, multiply and fill the earth. Vox's message is in accordance with that command. I don't understand the controversy here.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
I’m not a fan of Vox but I agree with the sentiment. Lots of men seem to want to restructure all of society in order to force a woman to marry them rather than actually asking one out and trying to build a relationship with her. I should also note that men like that, the instant they get a girlfriend, stop being as cringe and socially weird as they were beforehand. I’ve seen very surprising transformations.
 
That said I don't recommend giving up entirely. Just because you're not guaranteed to succeed does not mean you shouldn't try. Depending on what the goal is, sometimes even being not likely or very unlikely to succeed does not mean the effort should not be made.
I just think its weird that a lot of people on the right have a major blind spot when it comes this issue. One minute they talk about the beast system in the courts and the culture are destroying women and marriage, but then the next minute gaslight men by telling them its their fault and marriage is just as viable of an option as it was during the 50's.
 

Easy_C

Peacock
I just think its weird that a lot of people on the right have a major blind spot when it comes this issue. One minute they talk about the beast system in the courts and the culture are destroying women and marriage, but then the next minute gaslight men by telling them its their fault and marriage is just as viable of an option as it was during the 50's.

To be fair. Vox didn't actually say that. Saying it's "just as viable of an option as it was during the 50's" is what you're projecting onto him.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
I just think its weird that a lot of people on the right have a major blind spot when it comes this issue. One minute they talk about the beast system in the courts and the culture are destroying women and marriage, but then the next minute gaslight men by telling them its their fault and marriage is just as viable of an option as it was during the 50's.
It’s not the same as it was in the 50s, or any other decade that’s ever existed. It’s still a union and Sacrament performed by Christ Himself between two baptized Orthodox Christians in their Crowning ceremony.

It’s not like today’s men are the same as they were in the 50s either, and it’s always struck me as odd that sin-sick men demand a level of absolute purity and perfection from women (a fantasy anyway) that they themselves do not attain to. How many men masturbate to pornography, collect funko pops, obsess over Marvel movies, get drunk and/or high, and think they’re the same as the largely healthy, normal men of the 50’s? They’re not, yet they demand from women what they don’t of themselves.

That isn’t “being trad,” it’s just being a hypocrite. I’m not saying it’s easy or fair for men. It really isn’t. But the Church calls us to focus on our own sins and repent from them, not to whine about how we’re only sinning because women or society XYZ.
 

ph80

Sparrow
Orthodox Inquirer
It’s not the same as it was in the 50s, or any other decade that’s ever existed. It’s still a union and Sacrament performed by Christ Himself between two baptized Orthodox Christians in their Crowning ceremony.

It’s not like today’s men are the same as they were in the 50s either, and it’s always struck me as odd that sin-sick men demand a level of absolute purity and perfection from women (a fantasy anyway) that they themselves do not attain to. How many men masturbate to pornography, collect funko pops, obsess over Marvel movies, get drunk and/or high, and think they’re the same as the largely healthy, normal men of the 50’s? They’re not, yet they demand from women what they don’t of themselves.

That isn’t “being trad,” it’s just being a hypocrite. I’m not saying it’s easy or fair for men. It really isn’t. But the Church calls us to focus on our own sins and repent from them, not to whine about how we’re only sinning because women or society XYZ.

Good point about that double standard.

I've heard notorious pickup artists that claim to have slept with hundreds of women who demand "less than 3 sex partners" from "girlfriend material". It's like, how can you have this double standard and not even realize how corrupted by casual sex you are?

Speaking of which; Michael, did you ever get a chance to meet Ross Jeffries in person? I always wondered how career PUAs age when they don't settle down and get married as they enter middle age and beyond. Is he still "picking up" girls in his elderly years and how does that come off to you in person when you interact with him?
 
It’s not the same as it was in the 50s, or any other decade that’s ever existed. It’s still a union and Sacrament performed by Christ Himself between two baptized Orthodox Christians in their Crowning ceremony.

It’s not like today’s men are the same as they were in the 50s either, and it’s always struck me as odd that sin-sick men demand a level of absolute purity and perfection from women (a fantasy anyway) that they themselves do not attain to. How many men masturbate to pornography, collect funko pops, obsess over Marvel movies, get drunk and/or high, and think they’re the same as the largely healthy, normal men of the 50’s? They’re not, yet they demand from women what they don’t of themselves.

That isn’t “being trad,” it’s just being a hypocrite. I’m not saying it’s easy or fair for men. It really isn’t. But the Church calls us to focus on our own sins and repent from them, not to whine about how we’re only sinning because women or society XYZ.
How many men do women sleep with by the time they're 25? How many abortions do women get? Why do women initiate more than 70% of divorces? Why do the younger generation of women cheat more than men? Why do women have a higher rate of cheating the more partners they've been with? Why do women prostitute themselves on social media? Why do women wear excessive makeup and clothes that leave little to the imagination?

Women are in a far worse state than slacker men. The truth is we live in a time where women no longer depend on men for protection since those needs are already met by the state, which leaves the only desirability men have left is looks which most men don't have. In the past there was at least a major war for the less desirable men to sacrifice themselves to since they at least had the purpose of defending their land if they couldn't find a mate or there was the post war era which was easier for all men since there were a lot more women than men around, but now there are too many lost and undesirable men having to turn to copes like porn or consumerism to fill the void of lacking purpose, and all people do from all sides is spit on them and blame them for societies ills. Basically everyone thinks Quasimodo is alone in the bell tower because hes a "gamma" and not because he looks like the polar opposite of Captain Phoebus.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
Good point about that double standard.

I've heard notorious pickup artists that claim to have slept with hundreds of women who demand "less than 3 sex partners" from "girlfriend material". It's like, how can you have this double standard and not even realize how corrupted by casual sex you are?

Speaking of which; Michael, did you ever get a chance to meet Ross Jeffries in person? I always wondered how career PUAs age when they don't settle down and get married as they enter middle age and beyond. Is he still "picking up" girls in his elderly years and how does that come off to you in person when you interact with him?
I had dinner with him at a friend’s house in San Diego around 2016-2017. It was one of the most uncomfortable experiences I’ve had, and I distinctly remember thinking on the way home that I didn’t want to end up like that in my old age. He is extremely charismatic, but it’s done in a dark and vampiric way that leaves you feeling dirty after the conversation. Really hard to describe but it was one of the moments, in retrospect, that made me start to think more seriously about the path I was on at the time.

And whether it might be wise to move in…a new direction. Sorry had to do it :)
 
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