This is why you must train a live Martial Art or you'll end up with ego delusions!

[Saweeep]

^

I'm not so sure that it is. There's a saying, train like you fight. And if you consider boxing a form of training for a real world fight, you must then wonder what problems you'll run into when that real fight happens.

That's very hard to do. What is a "real world fight" exactly?

However, it is similar to sparring being the best preparation for a boxing bout. And a boxing bout being a good prep for a real world fight.

A real world fight is one where you don't have gloves, or wraps, or rules, or a shitload of free room to dance around in, etc. I'm mostly talking about equipment in that statement. Which is exactly what Sherman was talking about.

There are any number of analogies I could give to illustrate but no doubt people would take umbrage. Train in conditions as close to the conditions you will face in a fight, if you wish that training to most aptly prepare you for a fight.

There's nothing hard about that. Be creative. Get headgear and less restrictive gloves that allow you to make a solid fist, plus whatever padding you feel like using. Set up some obstacles in a room that will get in your way. Try to defend yourself against someone who is allowed to tackle you, to kick you, etc. Find the limits of your skill, and figure out what you need to work on.

I'm not a boxer. But, I know that boxers wear wraps, boxing gloves do not allow for a really tight fist (at least the ones I've worn), and boxers strike to the head a lot. It also doesn't matter so much if a boxer doesn't strike square because he's not going to break metacarpals with gloves on.

I don't really understand what you are saying here? Wraps and gloves enable us to hit harder in training than we could do without the equipment. Why is training to hit a (moving) head a problem?

Um. Seriously? Hang an 8 pound bowling ball from the ceiling on a rope about head height. Now punch it bare handed. That's what it feels like punching someone in the top half of the head, except a human head won't give as much, being attached to the rest of the body.

So, how does that translate into a bare knuckle fight? Is a boxer going to fall back on his training, or is he going to adapt to the new rules of fighting on the fly? Serious question.

What new rules? I can guarantee you that whilst an experienced boxer may break his hand punching someone on the street, the usually untrained opponent will come off a lot worse.

You haven't ever trained boxing so I think perhaps you don't understand the power produced by a boxing strike.

The new rules where you're not wearing gloves, or wraps. Where off-angle strikes will break bones in your hand or wrist. Where you have no padding, so hitting someone in the skull also has a lot of potential to break bones, especially with a loose fist. Pretty hard to hit someone again when you just broke bones in your hand, dude.

There's a good reason they taught us not to punch people in the head with a closed fist in karate. You apparently realize that a boxer might break his hand. So you only want to have one punch and you're done?

What happens when your opponent ducks his head, takes your punch on his upper forehead--which really doesn't hurt that much and is unlikely to put him down--and now you have a broken hand? Hope you're wearing running shoes.

And that comment about power is just stupid to say to a trained fighter bud. No, I'm not a boxer. But boxers aren't the only people in the world that know how to hit hard. Punching is a skill but it's far from rocket surgery.

As far as boxing for fight training, I'm a lot more concerned about the fact that boxing is a highly structured sport than the equipment issue. If boxing is all you do, you might want to consider training that involves opponents that can kick you (low kicks to destroy your base, not Hollywood crap) and grab on to you, or any number of other things that are against the rules in the ring.

Of course a sport is going to be structured; your shooting isn't done against moving opponents firing back at you, is it?

Funny you should mention that. I have, in fact, done force on force training where my opponent was shooting back with simunitions. My training is done on the move quite often, just like I would move in a real gunfight to get to cover and make it hard for my opponent to hit me.

In addition I have the uncommon advantage of being an infantry combat veteran, so I've had plenty of real people shooting real bullets at me. However, that's not required or recommended for most people who just want to defend themselves effectively.

I advocate retention training, extreme close quarters combat training, and other force on force practice for all people serious about defending themselves with a gun.

Also, very few people can deliver low kicks powerful enough to stop an adrenaline fuelled opponent in their tracks.

... What? Low kicks are quick and powerful. Someone who is looking for punches won't even see one coming, nor will some clown just rushing in. It's a tool in the toolbox, and not supposed to be some chop suey one strike fight ending crap.

Let someone kick you hard in the upper shin/knee area with a work boot and see how that affects your fighting ability. Unless you're some crazy South Korean guy straight out of Best of the Best and people break baseball bats over your shin on the regular, you're going to be feeling it.

What you have ignored is my statement that a boxer, who spars with boxing rules only, will not be looking for threats that don't exist in the boxing ring. There are so many examples there I'm not going to bother listing any. Use your imagination. Punching and taking punches is only a small part of fighting outside the ring.

Ok.

The only thing I will say is that if Boxing strikes were not the very best kind of striking we wouldn't have seen Karateka, upon the formation of Full Contact Karate (what we now call Kickboxing) switch to boxing punches.

The same thing has happened in Thailand with the adaptation of western boxing into Muay Thai (as a result of westerners putting them on their asses continually a couple of decades ago with boxing strikes).

Hell, I'd get a master Karateka in to train my K-1 fighters if I thought anything would give them an edge.

Look, I respect traditional martial arts as much as any student of their style but to say that anything but Western Boxing is the most effective form of punching is ridiculous.

 

[trainwreck]

Most of the people in this thread sound like typical keyboard warriors to me. I agree with dalaran1991 - avoiding fights in the first place is the most valuable asset. Seems like everyone here is onto being the dude who wins barfights. Its all fun and games until you have to pay someone's dental reconstruction and end up in jail for a few months if lucky.

PS: I do practice some muai thai, but in all fairness, I only go to workouts to stay fit and have never had the intention to get into a real fight or a typical fight-night ring fights.

 

[WanderingSoul]

Punching a bowling ball isn't even close to the same as punching someone in the head lol.

Sometimes people on this forum crack me up...stop talking about stuff you know absolutely nothing about. It makes you sound ridiculous.

 

[Moto]

You gotta separate the wheat from the chaff when choosing a school of any style or discipline.

Kung Fu and Karate are not necessarily dead.

Kung Fu instructor here. I sometimes go to an MMA school, where my brother chooses to train. I was a varsity wrestler in high school and qualified for state championships. Then I studied at a Kung Fu school. Not a McDojo, not for profit. It is underground. The master boxed for many years in his younger years, then studied many different styles of Kung Fu, with the most time in Kenpo Karate, before combining the best of it all in one system.

Some background info on myself and my style before giving my humble opinion. Doing Kung Fu made me a much better wrestler. It gave me the killer instinct that I lacked. My Kung Fu school was and is far from dead, according to the meaning of the OP, but it is underground. We sparred a lot. We have unique drills and techniques. We have deadly forms. Yes, practicing good forms can make you a better fighter. Sparring is important, but drills focussed on developing certain aspects, like speed, precision, timing, toughening your knuckles/wrists/shins/forearms, etc... are also important.

After moving to another state from my Kung Fu school, which I call with confidence an elite fighting brotherhood, I was unable to find anything near its equal. I found a Kung Fu McDojo, and cleaned up even the best students, with their multi-tipped black belts, during a "Sparring Festival" while wearing my white belt. I only signed up for Tai Chi classes at that school, by the way, to learn their form. I do quite well indeed, with my Kung Fu and wrestling, against MMA guys in sparring.

MMA still has a lot of rules, but true less than a standard Karate tournament. Take off the gloves, the grappling will be much less important. Boxing is limited in the kind of strikes you can throw. Avoiding a punch is good, as they do in boxing, but the technique of checking a punch with your big-ass glove will not transfer to the street and could get you hurt. Why not do more than simply avoid or do a basic block of a punch? It is a waste to not do something with the gift. You may not catch most punches in some great arm-breaking technique, but you can use your block/parry to control and maneuver your opponent. I've trashed Tae Kwon Do guys this way in an open martial arts tournament.

If you think chi is bullshit, and cannot feel a chi ball (like in the video being ridiculed at the beginning of the thread) I just feel a little sorry for you. You don't need that kind of sensitivity to be a badass fighter or pro boxer, but life is richer when you have more layers of perception than the merely physical. I no longer waste it on girls I hardly know, having only done this with my girlfriend in recent years, but most girls are more gifted than guys at feeling chi. You can indeed make a ball of chi, instruct someone how to do the same, then merge them and have a very real sensation of the energy. You can temporarily heal migraines like my brother has done with chi for his gf at one time, with no formal training or fancy lessons in Chinese medicine. PM if you're curious. No, I can't make fire or electricity, but I do not disbelieve in the possibility for extremely developed people with advanced minds and spirits.

Most important thing- a school should build character. I would have been thrown out for misusing my Kung Fu. This is not a copout, we are free to engage in tournaments and MMA and whatnot. But to bully or use it to engage in robbery or crime would be unforgivable. I don't know if most MMA gyms would feel the same way.

 

[Sherman]

RE: This is why you must train a

I question whether boxing is a good way to learn how to throw a punch in a real fight.

I work out in a gym with boxers and they can spend up to 15 minutes wrapping their hands before they put on their gloves. That is so they can punch without spraining their wrists.

I trained in traditional karate, where we learn to punch properly without gloves. This requires developing total control over the punch at every stage of the execution. I hit the bags with full force with my bare knuckles. Several times I have had alarmed boxers run up to me with a pair of gloves.

But in Karate, you learn to punch with control. You hit your target with full force with your wrist square so it doesn't twist. I also do bare knuckle pushups every day to condition my knuckles. In traditional Karate, you practice hitting a makiwara, which is a padded striking post.

If a boxer gets in a real fight, where you don't have time to put on gloves, and actually hits bone, not only will it be excruciatingly painful, but he runs the risk of spraining or even breaking his wrist. The boxer never learns to safely hit a target with full force without the aid of hand wrapping and gloves.

Do you practice hitting anything that hits back?

To be honest it's a silly post full of incorrect assumptions on Sherman's part.

Boxers wrap their wrists to protect them from injury. But providing protection weakens your wrist and exposes you to injury in a real fight. If you want to fight without gloves, you have to condition your wrists, hands, and knuckles to make them strong. A protected hand is a weak hand. Boxing is a great sport. But there is a difference between a sport and a real street fight where you obviously can't put on gloves. I am just saying that in this instance, Karate is a more realistic self defense because it trains people how to fight without any artificial protection. A traditional Japanese karate punch is powerful because the Karate punch uses the whole body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrist_wraps

 

[WanderingSoul]

Ok, so you have full power bare knuckle sparring sessions to the face in your karate dojo?

And you think a cross or hook doesn't use the whole body?

I'd say karate (very general term, some types like kyokushin are much better than others) is much worse since you don't wear protection, you can't spar at even close to the same power, speed and intensity of a real fight. You'll be completely unprepared for what a real fight is like and be in for a rude awakening if it ever happens.

 

[Sherman]

RE: This is why you must train a

"Ok, so you have full power bare knuckle sparring sessions to the face in your karate dojo?"

You don't have to hit someone to condition your hands. The point is that you have to put in the hours of training to specifically condition your fist to hit something hard at full force without injuring yourself. It doesn't happen automatically. The same thing applies, incidentally, to the shins of your legs. In traditional karate, the shins are conditioned by hitting them with bats.


"And you think a cross or hook doesn't use the whole body?"

In Karate, you learn to punch from your stomach using hip rotation.

"I'd say karate (very general term, some types like kyokushin are much better than others) is much worse since you don't wear protection, you can't spar at even close to the same power, speed and intensity of a real fight. You'll be completely unprepared for what a real fight is like and be in for a rude awakening if it ever happens."

Master Oyama, developer of Kyokushin, trained under Master Funakoshi along with Master Nishiyama. I trained under Master Nishiyama in Shotokan style for my black belt.

Boxing does condition a fighter to take a punch and keep fighting. Karate sparring maintains full power and speed, in addition to control, by delivering the blow at full power but stopping at the target. At the black belt level, limited contact is allowed to keep it painful.

Here is a picture of Master Oyama hitting a traditional makiwara.

[attachment=24164]

 

[Aliblahba]

This thread needs more Fisto.

 

[WanderingSoul]

You know it's impossible to maintain full power and speed if you stop before you hit the target, right?

So the only sparring allowed is limited contact, once you reach black belt? And you can't hit to the face? So, how is this realistic? Because you don't wrap your hands?

And you punch from the stomach, so your hands are down at your waist, with nothing protecting your head from punches? How do you defend from punches to the head? Especially if no one can punch you in the head during training?

 

[Sherman]

RE: This is why you must train a live M

You know it's impossible to maintain full power and speed if you stop before you hit the target, right?

So the only sparring allowed is limited contact, once you reach black belt? And you can't hit to the face? So, how is this realistic? Because you don't wrap your hands?

And you punch from the stomach, so your hands are down at your waist, with nothing protecting your head from punches? How do you defend from punches to the head? Especially if no one can punch you in the head during training?

No its not impossible when you have control. Traditional Japanese Karate is designed around creating total control of every movement. Even a boxer must have some way of creating stability and stopping his punches else he would fall over every time he punched full force and missed his target.

Punching from the stomach does not mean your hands are near your waist. It refers to the power of the punch coming from your center of gravity and transmitting to your arm through hip rotation.

Of course, Karate has many blocks to protect the face. Being repeatedly hit in the face doesn't make you stronger, especially if you are a knowledge worker.

 

[germanico]

I trained in traditional karate, where we learn to punch properly without gloves. This requires developing total control over the punch at every stage of the execution. I hit the bags with full force with my bare knuckles. Several times I have had alarmed boxers run up to me with a pair of gloves.

But in Karate, you learn to punch with control. You hit your target with full force with your wrist square so it doesn't twist

How many human jaws or skulls do you hit full-force in your karate training sesions?

 

[Sherman]

I trained in traditional karate, where we learn to punch properly without gloves. This requires developing total control over the punch at every stage of the execution. I hit the bags with full force with my bare knuckles. Several times I have had alarmed boxers run up to me with a pair of gloves.

But in Karate, you learn to punch with control. You hit your target with full force with your wrist square so it doesn't twist

How many human jaws or skulls do you hit full-force in your karate training sesions?

There is nothing stopping you from hitting human jaws and skulls tomorrow. That doesn't mean you are a skilled fighter.

 

[germanico]

Tomorrow not today. Doing a bunch of push ups with your fists or hitting a bag without gloves isnt going to stop you from breaking your fingerbones tomorrow either.

 

[Sherman]

RE: This is why you must train a live

Tomorrow not today. Doing a bunch of push ups with your fists or hitting a bag without gloves isnt going to stop you from breaking your fingerbones tomorrow either.

The Karate punch contacts its target only through the first two knuckles with the wrist level and the thumb tucked in tightly. So you are never going to hit anything with your fingers and thumb, and your wrist will never be in a twisted formation. This takes control and practice. If you wear a glove, you will never get this practice or know how to do it. With a glove, you may actually be hitting someone with your thumb, but the force distributes through the glove so you can get away with it. That is why boxers wrap their hands.

 

[Kieran]

In boxing, we also aim to land with the first two knuckles, except I was taught to angle the hand very slightly down, and very slightly outwards, which lines the knuckles up directly in front of the wrist bone, and feels really stable. Another tip I got from a video by a Mike McCallum trained fighter on the Sherdog forums, was to close the smaller fingers first and to close them tighter, so that the first two knuckles protrude more. Even though in a glove you can't completely close the fist, nor do you want to until impact, but you can still form a semi tight fist in the same way.

However while we're taught to punch that way, in reality when you have a moving target, and we're trying to punch around elbows etc., obviously we're not always going to land perfectly with the first two knuckles, which is one of the reasons we have hand wraps and gloves (I remember reading that this actually developed so that fights can last longer and be better for spectators, as bare knuckle fights wouldn't last very long as hands would be broken, and the facial cuts would be too severe).

Your theory sounds nice, but is nothing like reality.

 

[Sherman]

RE: This is why you must train

In boxing, we also aim to land with the first two knuckles, except I was taught to angle the hand very slightly down, and very slightly outwards, which lines the knuckles up directly in front of the wrist bone, and feels really stable. Another tip I got from a video by a Mike McCallum trained fighter on the Sherdog forums, was to close the smaller fingers first and to close them tighter, so that the first two knuckles protrude more. Even though in a glove you can't completely close the fist, nor do you want to until impact, but you can still form a semi tight fist in the same way.

However while we're taught to punch that way, in reality when you have a moving target, and we're trying to punch around elbows etc., obviously we're not always going to land perfectly with the first two knuckles, which is one of the reasons we have hand wraps and gloves (I remember reading that this actually developed so that fights can last longer and be better for spectators, as bare knuckle fights wouldn't last very long as hands would be broken, and the facial cuts would be too severe).

Your theory sounds nice, but is nothing like reality.

I agree with most of what you said, but am not sure what you meant by "nothing like reality". Karate practitioners are able to break bricks and boards using the first two knuckles. If the control wasn't accurate they would cause permanent injure to their hands. The Karate stance also makes it easily possible during a fight. In fact, in the more advanced moves, Karate has a round house punch where you can land a punch to the side of your opponents head, with the wrist square and using the two knuckles. There is also an "empi" punch where you swing your fist upwards connecting under your opponents chin, with your wrist level and connecting with the two knuckles.

 

[samsamsam]

^^ Aren't those practitioners who break those boards/bricks allowed time to prepare for the blow? Meaning it always seems like they are allowed as much time as needed to rehearse before hitting it. When do you get that chance in a real fight? "Hold on a second, I need about 30 seconds to prepare my death blow."

My experience of the people commenting on boxing is one of sharing information. However, you seem to be coming from a place of how much better your choice of self defense is superior to anything else. Which can never be proven. But you seem dead set on making sure that whatever you have invested time in is superior to protect your ego. I thought martial arts was to teach you not to have an ego, not to engage in unnecessary "confrontations", etc.

Anyway here is a guy breaking some bricks using a towel to protect his hand.

 

[Foolsgo1d]

People who practice breaking shit with their arms, hands or head are like the shadow boxers you see in the gyms near you.

The difference being is Mr Shadowboxer won't have severe arthritis come his 40s or earlier.

All plans go out the window once you get hit in the face. Look up how many boxers train for years, have highly conditioned bodies and yet fall like a fat sack of shit once they take a good hit to their glass chin.

Or failing that, the solar plexus, your knee, your throat.

 

[TravelerKai]

When I finish this Martial Arts datasheet the debating is going to get ugly.

 

[Kieran]

In boxing, we also aim to land with the first two knuckles, except I was taught to angle the hand very slightly down, and very slightly outwards, which lines the knuckles up directly in front of the wrist bone, and feels really stable. Another tip I got from a video by a Mike McCallum trained fighter on the Sherdog forums, was to close the smaller fingers first and to close them tighter, so that the first two knuckles protrude more. Even though in a glove you can't completely close the fist, nor do you want to until impact, but you can still form a semi tight fist in the same way.

However while we're taught to punch that way, in reality when you have a moving target, and we're trying to punch around elbows etc., obviously we're not always going to land perfectly with the first two knuckles, which is one of the reasons we have hand wraps and gloves (I remember reading that this actually developed so that fights can last longer and be better for spectators, as bare knuckle fights wouldn't last very long as hands would be broken, and the facial cuts would be too severe).

Your theory sounds nice, but is nothing like reality.

I agree with most of what you said, but am not sure what you meant by "nothing like reality". Karate practitioners are able to break bricks and boards using the first two knuckles. If the control wasn't accurate they would cause permanent injure to their hands. The Karate stance also makes it easily possible during a fight. In fact, in the more advanced moves, Karate has a round house punch where you can land a punch to the side of your opponents head, with the wrist square and using the two knuckles. There is also an "empi" punch where you swing your fist upwards connecting under your opponents chin, with your wrist level and connecting with the two knuckles.

I mean that in practice you will not be able to land with the first two knuckles at all times.