Thoughts on capital punishment

Luna Novem

Woodpecker
Woman
In my opinion, we do not utilize capital punishment enough in this country. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

I think capital punishment ought to be the default punishment for anyone who rapes, trafficks, or molests a prepubescent child, as well as those who create, distribute, or watch pornography involving said age group. Severe physical child abuse ought to warrant the same. (Not spankings; I mean these cases where they recover 50 pound 12-year-olds; kids beaten black and blue, kids living in squalor and animal feces, etc.)

Cold-blooded murderers deserve the death penalty as well. Not crimes of passion, but premeditated, calculated murders and murder/kidnappings.

These thoughts come to my mind whenever I read a heinous news story and know the perpetrator will get off in five or ten years.`
 

messaggera

Woodpecker
Woman
Whenever someone brings up the topic of Capital Punishment it reminds me of the murder of Travis Alexander.
Jodi Arias was found guilty of first degree murder with only a punishment of life in prison with no parole. Evil does exist.
 

stugatz

Pelican
I'd say premeditated murder should carry the death penalty only if it's something abberant, and the person is a clear and present danger to all surrounding him. (Serial killers, spree killers, and someone who kills a little old lady because they feel like it would fit this category.) There are circumstances, though, where someone commits murder, but isn't necessarily a danger to most people in society.

There was an Oklahoma case some time ago that gave me pause. A man shot at two intruders who attempted an armed robbery in his store, killing one and severely injuring the other to the point where he was incapacitated and no longer a threat. Right after this, he steps over guy #2 to go back into his armory and get a second gun. He then returns and shoots him dead.

He got life in prison over this, because he made the decision to kill someone after the fact, as a way of saying "you can't cross me" - and something that on-the-spot is enough to count as premeditation. I'd say that's fair enough, but a man like this isn't likely to go killing random people for the pleasure of it, and could conceivably get out on parole and not be a threat to his city.

There are also certain cases where death penalty was plead down to life in prison for reasons I thought were understandable - one example is the Green River Killer, who agreed to disclose the locations of all of his victims if he could avoid death row. Some would say "well so what, they're still dead" but I think that bringing that many families closure was worth approaching this from that angle.
 
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Max Roscoe

Kingfisher
What is the purpose of the action you are seeking after a crime is committed?
Is it retributive justice?
Is it rehabilitation to create a safe society?
Is it removal of undesirables?
A deterrent to hopefully stop others from committing similar crimes?
Something else?
 

Luna Novem

Woodpecker
Woman
What is the purpose of the action you are seeking after a crime is committed?
Is it retributive justice?
Is it rehabilitation to create a safe society?
Is it removal of undesirables?
A deterrent to hopefully stop others from committing similar crimes?
Something else?
I'd say all of these, with protection of further victims being the #1.
 

Luna Novem

Woodpecker
Woman
I'd say premeditated murder should carry the death penalty only if it's something abberant, and the person is a clear and present danger to all surrounding him. (Serial killers, spree killers, and someone who kills a little old lady because they feel like it would fit this category.) There are circumstances, though, where someone commits murder, but isn't necessarily a danger to most people in society.

There was an Oklahoma case some time ago that gave me pause. A man shot at two intruders who attempted an armed robbery in his store, killing one and severely injuring the other to the point where he was incapacitated and no longer a threat. Right after this, he steps over guy #2 to go back into his armory and get a second gun. He then returns and shoots him dead.

He got life in prison over this, because he made the decision to kill someone after the fact, as a way of saying "you can't cross me" - and something that on-the-spot is enough to count as premeditation. I'd say that's fair enough, but a man like this isn't likely to go killing random people for the pleasure of it, and could conceivably get out on parole and not be a threat to his city.

There are also certain cases where death penalty was plead down to life in prison for reasons I thought were understandable - one example is the Green River Killer, who agreed to disclose the locations of all of his victims if he could avoid death row. Some would say "well so what, they're still dead" but I think that bringing that many families closure was worth approaching this from that angle.
I'm with you. I fully support storeowners and homeowners shooting robbers, even if no lives seem to be in danger at that specific moment.
 

stugatz

Pelican
I'm with you. I fully support storeowners and homeowners shooting robbers, even if no lives seem to be in danger at that specific moment.
I mean, what he did was definitely premeditated, but how he dealt with a robbery is probably how this was dealt with in every other generation. I really don't think most of the people that I know would avoid someone for doing what he did. (They'd just be afraid to mess with him, maybe.)

If there was a degree of murder that involved premeditation but wasn't quite as severe as first degree, I think he would be a candidate for that.
 

Easy_C

Peacock
Isaac Relyea made one simple point:

It is NOT as simple as these people not being able to escape prison, but often that the truly psychopathic will continue to abuse and harm others once they get to prison. If you can’t stop that then keeping them alive is not a good and the correct thing to do is use capital punishment to prevent this from happening
 

dragonfire00

Sparrow
Woman
I still have an issue of using death in any punishment except maybe if the person is a huge danger to society (like a terrorist from another country that could wreak havoc if they got out or something- although usually those end up being bartering tools regardless) as I worry about the precedent. When the people in charge start changing what is considered a crime or not, I'm afraid innocent people will be killed and some already have been.

Just one example: Our definition of child abuse is probably the same, but those in charge might find that not referring to your son as "she' or giving him estrogen might be "child abuse."

Parents like the mom in the Jazz Jennings show (munchausen by proxy) are child abusers, yet lauded as super woke "good parents"

One thing that could be a good idea is maybe the option to let someone who is a child abuser/rapist/murderer commit suicide to save tax payer money, and this could also help as the person who is innocent is less likely to do that and then maybe will be able to go free when there's new evidence. Idk, is that too Social Darwinistic?

Also with the emphasis on rehabilitating people with mental illness (of which who knows how many were truly) I see crimes getting less penalties in the future and not more. Although any of these hate crimes or crimes that they're claiming are hate crimes are going to have the largest prison sentences. Not that I'd defend any of those guys but it will be interesting to see how this goes.
 

Starlight

Woodpecker
Woman
In some ways, old fashioned vigilantism was more Just than our pathetic excuse of a “legal” system is now. For example, a few years ago in the local news a woman was sentenced for murder (I don’t remember for how long). Her “crime” was catching her husband raping her 12 year old daughter and then shooting and killing him. Like stugatz wrote, they also said it was premeditated because she saw what had happened (the rape) and then got a gun from somewhere in the house and came back to kill the man. So, the mother goes to jail and the daughter, now a young traumatized rape victim, ends up in foster care (probably to continue being abused) for the next 6 years. In the old days, the sheriff probably would’ve given the mom a pat on the back for saving him the trouble and then that would’ve been the end of it.

I imagine the Wild West was a lot safer back then than it is now. At least people could defend themselves without huge money-making court systems in place to screw over the average citizen. Lifelong criminals are allowed to roam the streets freely terrorizing anyone but if you’re an average law-abiding citizen and defend yourself, family, or property there’s a large chance you’ll either go to jail or be financially ruined or both. In my state, criminals have more rights than their victims! Makes perfect sense...

Instead of being a delegator of Justice, our Courts have become a “Legal System” which is now based on pilpul and semantics that knowingly defends criminals and actively prevents Justice.



*Disclaimer: I’m not advocating vigilantism or violence in anyway. This post is for discussion only*
 
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Death Row is a plenty good place for the Gospel:



If they are faking it. No longer a problem. If its genuine they get to be with the Lord Jesus. Win-win. 0 recidivism.

I think Capital Punishment for Murder is non-negotiable at least:

Genesis 9:6
"Whoever sheds the blood of Man(Mankind) by Man(Mankind) shall his blood be shed for in the Image of God he made Man"

This applies to all Mankind outside of those of the Mosaic Covenant with Israel. And is binding for all time until the consummation of all things.
 

Leeloo

Woodpecker
Woman
Whenever someone brings up the topic of Capital Punishment it reminds me of the murder of Travis Alexander.
Jodi Arias was found guilty of first degree murder with only a punishment of life in prison with no parole. Evil does exist.

Ugh yes. Her case irks me as well. She is cold, and a complete loon with no remorse.

Reminds me of the Chris Watts case also. There was a Netflix special about him killing his wife and two young daughters and stuffing their bodies in oil drums. Absolutely horrific. He was caught a few days later and convicted of course. But no death penalty for him either. I can’t imagine a worse crime than annihilating your entire family, but lo—he gets to sit in comfy Supermax isolation for years on our dime and never have to show one ounce of remorse or payback to society.

They should all fry, IMO.
 
Whenever someone brings up the topic of Capital Punishment it reminds me of the murder of Travis Alexander.
Jodi Arias was found guilty of first degree murder with only a punishment of life in prison with no parole. Evil does exist.


Travis did use her terribly though. It's a textbook case of making someone feel like she was going to soon be getting something "third finger, left hand", she even converted to Mormonism, as long as she kept whoring for him .... and then ... dump. But it's horrible and wrong what happened to him. Just saying that biblically everyone should know that fornication "be's like that".



"Leeloo wrote: "Ugh yes. Her case irks me as well. She is cold, and a complete loon".
But he liked the loon because she was wild in bed.
 

Leeloo

Woodpecker
Woman
"Leeloo wrote: "Ugh yes. Her case irks me as well. She is cold, and a complete loon".
But he liked the loon because she was wild in bed.

Hit the nail on the head. People seem to excuse a plethora of bad character traits in trade for ‘good in bed.’ Jodi Arias even tried to play the sexy card in her interrogation and trial. Most of America had a hard time seeing through the hot girl for what she is inside.
 

Leeloo

Woodpecker
Woman
In my opinion, we do not utilize capital punishment enough in this country. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

I think capital punishment ought to be the default punishment for anyone who rapes, trafficks, or molests a prepubescent child, as well as those who create, distribute, or watch pornography involving said age group. Severe physical child abuse ought to warrant the same. (Not spankings; I mean these cases where they recover 50 pound 12-year-olds; kids beaten black and blue, kids living in squalor and animal feces, etc.)

Cold-blooded murderers deserve the death penalty as well. Not crimes of passion, but premeditated, calculated murders and murder/kidnappings.

These thoughts come to my mind whenever I read a heinous news story and know the perpetrator will get off in five or ten years.`

Great topic idea, by the way!!
 
Hit the nail on the head. People seem to excuse a plethora of bad character traits in trade for ‘good in bed.’ Jodi Arias even tried to play the sexy card in her interrogation and trial. Most of America had a hard time seeing through the hot girl for what she is inside.
It would require an expose and also forcing them to witness the ugliness of character on display like how Amber Heard got exposed on recorded audio and video.

That tips the scale somewhat. But too many people deny women agency by calling them "crazy" still even so.
 

Grow Bag

Kingfisher
I've not thought about it that much, since we don't have the death penalty in England. I do believe in redemption and a dead person cannot be redeemed, so, no, I don't approve of capital punishment. However, there are many whose crimes are so heinous that they ought never be let out of prison, even for sustained good conduct over the years. I don't have liberal ideas of rehabilitating serially violent offenders or those who prey on children, even if they have declared themselves Christian. It's enough that they've repented, they can practice their faith inside.
 

Vigilant

Kingfisher
Woman
If one is guilty of killing a person unjustly, and does not have his life removed, then that leaves the non-guilty to be unjustly killed.
This is already happening in our day.

An example of killing someone unjustly; child killing through abortion.
An example of killing someone justly; defending one's life whilst the murderer is trying to take your life.

Even if one repents for taking someone else's life unjustly, they will be forgiven by God, but must suffer the consequences, through the civil authority.


"Testimony: How a SA Born White Minister Led His Father's Black Murderer to Faith in God

Francis Nigel Lee died on December 23 in Australia. He was 77 years old. He was as widely read a man as I have ever known, and I have known some famous ones. He earned multiple doctorates. His great book is a 1,300-page book, Communist Eschatology (1974). He wrote many others.

In April 1994, I was invited to fly round the world and expound the Lord's Prayer in the U. S. A. during September. Having acquired the plane ticket, as an only child I was much looking forward to visiting my parents in Barrydale (near Swellendam in South Africa) on my way from Australia to America.

However, in July 1994, my father (almost 86) was robbed and left for dead in his home. My mother (having lost her mind and the use of some of her bodily functions) was permanently hospitalised. One week after being assaulted, my father died in hospital and went to be with the Lord.

Upon my arrival in South Africa in September, I headed for Swellendam (where my mother is still in hospital). There, I was amazed that the police had apprehended a young man in connection with the death of my father, and that the young man had signed a statement alleging that he alone had attacked my father. I also learned that my father, before dying, had given a description to the police of the young man (which description is altogether in harmony with the appearance of the accused) and that the latter was being held in jail precisely in Swellendam, while awaiting his preliminary trial just one week after my own arrival there.

I immediately contacted the jail, requesting permission to come and speak to the accused (of whom it is alleged that he had killed also someone else even before attacking my father). The police warmly supported my request, but informed me the accused had the right to refuse to see me. He, however, being told who I was, agreed and even requested to meet with me.

On the 15th of September I went to the jail, where I was told to surrender my camera and tape-recorder and any firearms I may have been carrying. I was escorted to a room where three armed policemen and their officer were doing clerical work. One minute later, the accused was brought through the door into the room and stood there in front of me.

He was a strongly-built medium-sized man, answering exactly to the description given by my father to the police. He stood there, just looking down at the ground. I silently prayed to God for guidance as to what to do next. Then I got up from my chair; addressed him politely by his full name; greeted him with a handshake; thanked him sincerely for granting me the interview; and requesting him to sit down before I again did so.

I then said: "Mr. W., are you getting enough to eat here?" He replied: "Yes, thank you." I said: "Have you peace of mind here?" He replied: "Sir, I am very unhappy. I have been praying to God in my cell for the last three nights, but it's as if my prayers bounce back off the ceiling and don't get through."

I then said: "Mr. W., I am the only child of the old man who was left for dead behind the front door of his house in Barrydale on the 10th of July whom you are accused of having assaulted. I had been looking forward to spending a week with him in September, but as you can see this is now impossible." The young man nodded; looked down; and said nothing.

I then continued: "Mr. W., my father was not a Christian many years ago, but there came a time in his life when he turned from his sins and received Jesus as his Lord and Saviour. That is why he is now in heaven, and waiting for me to join him.

"I assure you Mr. W., that if you make your peace with God -- whether you die right now of a heart attack; or are to be put to death for murder; or die naturally later on -- you too will go to heaven. I also assure you that my father, whom you are accused of having murdered, will then be the first to welcome you there. However, Mr. W., if you do not repent and if you die in your sins, I assure you that you will spend eternity in hell-fire and damnation forever!

"Mr. W., whether you repent and become a Christian, or you harden yourself and die in your sins, know for sure that if found guilty by the court I would want you to receive the maximum penalty.

"I will plead no leniency whatsoever for you, even if you become a Christian, but I am offering you everlasting life in heaven after you die, if you will repent and come to Jesus.

"Mr. W., three men died on a little hill called Calvary. Two were guilty robbers; but the One in the middle, the Lord Jesus, was innocent. Robbers, as you know, include those who go around beating up old people and leaving them for dead after stealing from them. Both of those robbers jeered at the innocent Jesus crucified between them.

"But then one of the robbers repented, turned to the other, and said: 'We are being condemned justly. For we are receiving the punishment due, for our deeds. But this man (Jesus) has done nothing amiss!' Then the penitent robber said to Jesus: 'Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!' So Jesus said: 'Truly, I tell you, today you shall be with me in paradise!'

"Mr. W., do you not see yourself as one of those two robbers next to Jesus on Calvary? Will you die in your sins and go to hell like the impenitent robber? Or will you, like the other robber, repent of your sins; receive Jesus as your Lord; and be assured by Him that you will go to heaven when you die?

"Mr. W., if you wish, I will leave this jail right now. But if you prefer, I would be privileged to show you right now how you too can become a Christian. Which is it to be?"

Mr. W. then tried to look in my eye. He said: "Sir, would you please show me how to become a Christian?" I then realised that the four policemen in the room had all put down their pens; had stopped working; and were straining their ears, listening to us. So I said: "Officer, could you kindly get us a Bible?"

The officer went galloping out of the room, and immediately returned with a Bible and put it on my lap with great respect. I opened it at John 3:16, and asked Mr. W. if he could read. When he so indicated, I handed him the Bible, and asked him to read it. Loudly and clearly, he read it out, and then said: "I am too big a sinner!" But I replied: "Mr. W., it says here: 'whosoever'; and that includes you too, if and when you put your trust in Jesus."

The atmosphere was electric. All in that room felt the awesome presence of God the Holy Ghost. The silence was terrifying. Then I said: "Mr. W., will you come to Jesus?" He replied: "I will!"

So, two wicked hell-deserving sinners Rev. Prof. Dr. Nigel Lee and his father's slayer Mr. W., then went down on their knees in that jail together. I put my arm around his shoulder, and prayed first. I thanked God for our meeting; (re)confessed all my own fresh sins to the Lord; and then asked Him to have mercy on Mr. W., for Christ's sake.

Mr. W. then prayed. He said: "Lord, I'm a miserable sinner! Please don't let Satan destroy me! I am sorry for all my sins. Forgive me, for the sake of Jesus who died for people like me!"

We then got off our knees. I assured him: "Mr. W., if you really meant that, you are now my brother. In that case, here is my right hand of fellowship. I will help you in any way I can. Here is my address in Australia. If you write to me, I promise to reply to every letter you may write, for the rest of my life. When is your trial?"

He replied: "Thursday 22nd September." I promised to pray for him on that day (when I would be overseas), that justice would be done and that he would continue to receive God's grace whatever the outcome. I then again shook his hand and left the jail to the astonishment of both the grateful police and the bewildered convicts there who just kept on staring at me in amazement.

Driving back to Barrydale, I praised God and sang His Psalms the whole time -- realizing anew that God is not dead but very much alive on this great planet earth. For God had revived my soul -- and, I trust, those of all in that room in the jail.

Four days later, I visited the jail again. This time Mr. W. was waiting for me with a smile. He had been reading the Bible since I last saw him, and claimed to have peace. I urged him to speak to the other prisoners about what had happened to him; to tell the full truth at his trial.

I also urged him to work and witness for the Lord for the rest of his earthly life (be it short or long). He then prayed for both of us; thanked God for my visits; and boldly asked the Lord to bless me wherever I went (that same day to England, and thereafter to America).

God heard his prayer. In London, the Lord spoke powerfully even through my there relating the above events. In America, the effect was electrifying, and the tape-recording of my account is spreading like wildfire and producing awesome enquires and results. I used it there, as an illustration, while preaching on the fifth petition in the Lord's Prayer: "And forgive men their debts, as we forgive our debtors!"

My fellow sinner, how stands it with your soul? Are you certain you are right with God for time and eternity? For Jesus assures us: "If you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses!"

O that God would melt the heavens and come down, and touch and revive His hard-nosed children here on earth! Do you have the certainty that all your sins have been forgiven, for Christ's sake? If not, settle this matter forthwith!

Sincerely in the Lord's service, from a sinner saved by grace

(Rev. Prof. Dr.) F. N. Lee,

Queensland Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Ret.

Brisbane, Australia."
 
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