Thoughts on Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Churches

Roosh

Cardinal
Orthodox
So the whole thread has just been moved to the "Faith general" section. Like me old Catholic self would say: "For Pete's sake!"

This is clearly not the place to have a cultured, unbiased discussion about Orthodox Christianity.

I am off to the "Living general" and "Health" sections.

Have a nice evening, guys.
Why does this upset you?
 
Why does this upset you?
Hi Roosh. Not so much of an upset, more like an annoyance.
Understandably people from Roman Catholic and Protestant background (who may not be fully aware of the schisms and subtle differences between different Orthodox Churches) see The Ethiopian/Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church as an Orthodox Church, simple as that. While I personally have been aware of the basic differences, I did not know the division was so strong.
On this thread, virtually every commenter claimed "the Church you are talking about is not Orthodox"
Would not have been better just saying "They are part of the Oriental Orthodox group of Churches - despite of the similarities they are not Eastern Orthodox".
Roosh, if you don't mind me asking , after leaving the Armenian Orthodox Church, did you consider another oriental Orthodox Church before choosing ROCOR? Just curiosity...
 

Roosh

Cardinal
Orthodox
Understandably people from Roman Catholic and Protestant background (who may not be fully aware of the schisms and subtle differences between different Orthodox Churches) see The Ethiopian/Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church as an Orthodox Church, simple as that.
Well it is an error to see them as Orthodox. Now you know the truth and no longer need to hold onto that misconception. Those Churches are not in Communion with the Orthodox Church.

"Oriental Orthodox" has Orthodox in their name (since the 1950s), but they are not Orthodox because they do not accept all the councils. They can call themselves what they want but it does not make them so.
 

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
It's really quite something to see the transformation and I hope that people will reflect on it. I am just imagining if an Armenian Orthodox Church thread was opened 2 years ago, or the exact same question here about the ethiopians. People would probably send on pics of beautiful Churches, talk about the history, put a video or two of good homilies from their Priests, bring up the councils a little - of course. It begs the question, where are we now, and is this becoming more or less a place of Male Christian Unity in Society as a whole? Or is this webpage a branch apostolate of the ROCOR? To me the former is achievable and the latter, might be preferable to many members but is clearly a cause for members who are not part of these apostolic Churches to indeed leave.

Roosh will have to discern that, if he has not already. It's not for me to worry about such things beyond the simple ask whether this forum is indeed serving it's original intended purpose with respect to Faith, and to ask clearly, "what is the intended purpose of this faith forum is?". Things have indeed changed. Let's be clear on this as Christians are taught to be straightforward and bring things to the light. Some of us might be more than happy to kick the dust off our feet. Yes we will miss the health and lifestyle forum, sharing posts on silver or elements of our faith.... but some things are indeed more important. While the rules might be clear, the practical enforcement and moderation of the forum is where many are seeing a clear difference in the past months.

@InquiringMind you are Catholic, all you have to do is to come home. Eastern Churches such as ROCOR are not actually orthodox in their belief, similar to these oriental Churches they claim the title but do not have it. The Roman Catholic Church is indeed Orthodox. It is not possible to be orthodox without the council of Florence for example.

I wonder if the above comment will get me banned or suspended, but surely if I was a member of the ROCOR I could state the reverse about an oriental orthodox or RCC with impunity.

The Council of Florence clarified the Latin dogma of papal supremacy:
"We likewise define that the holy Apostolic See, and the Roman Pontiff, hold the primacy throughout the entire world; and that the Roman Pontiff himself is the successor of blessed Peter, the chief of the Apostles, and the true vicar of Christ, and that he is the head of the entire Church, and the father and teacher of all Christians; and that full power was given to him in blessed Peter by our Lord Jesus Christ, to feed, rule, and govern the universal Church.
 

Hermetic Seal

Kingfisher
Orthodox
Gold Member
This is silly. There's nothing stopping the OP from discussing the Ethiopian church in this thread. It was simply moved because the Orthodox Christianity subforum was not the correct place for it. If you don't accept Chalcedon, you don't fall under the scope of the Orthodox forum.

It is not possible to be orthodox without the council of Florence for example.

Wrong. Florence was fake and gay, was rejected by the Church, and the circumstances surrounding Patriarch Joseph's "concessions" to the Pope conveniently found by his deathbed make Jeffrey Epstein's "suicide" seem downright legit in comparison.

I wonder if the above comment will get me banned or suspended

Probably not, but you're likely to get ridiculed for making bad arguments.
 

get2choppaaa

Pelican
Ridiculed for not being a member of your Church you mean. Simple as that.

Many who tend to place significant importance on the Council of Florence often lose sight of the result of political pressure to push for unification with the Latins to defend against the Muslim Ottomans by Byzantine Rulers. The political landscape can't be ignored and all the various trifilings between different principalities in Europe/Hussite Rebellions/Pope and Anti-Pope... the whole period was full of turmoil...

Ultimately the breakdown is this:

Do you believe that The Pope has the ability to be the titular figurehead and is responsible for speaking for all the Christian world or do you believe that there are multiple heads of Jurisdictions that unanimously decided what the teachings/tradition of the Church are supposed to be?

Regarding Florence: It was not unanimous, was mired in controversy, and was rejected accordingly. Bishops who attended in favor of the union, some may have been sincere, were widely viewed as heretical. Even so it was unsuccessful as Latin aid to Constantinople proved in-effective ( which you might argue was the whole point of the council from a geo-political view.) While there are some Unionate Catholics or Byzantine Right Catholics that do exist... they often invalidate many of the teachings that are espoused by the Catholic Sea such as priests being able to marry.
 

Eusebius Erasmus

Kingfisher
Orthodox
Probably not, but you're likely to get ridiculed for making bad arguments.

I was suspended for 2 weeks for stating that the Orthodox Church considers Catholics to be heretics (due to the Filioque and other doctrinal issues). This is simply the position of the Orthodox Church, which apparently is forbidden to state on these forums.

St. Mark of Ephesus wrote,
"We have cut the Latins off from us for no other reason than that they are not only schismatics, but heretics. For this reason it is wholly improper to unite with them.... The Latins are not only schismatics but heretics as well. However, the Church was silent on this because their race is large and more powerful than ours... and we wished not to fall into triumphalism over the Latins as heretics but to be accepting of their return and to cultivate brotherliness." (1439)

So yes, it is highly likely that @NoMoreTO will be banned/suspended for his comments, which are far more controversial than mine.
 
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Augustus_Principe

Woodpecker
It's really quite something to see the transformation and I hope that people will reflect on it. I am just imagining if an Armenian Orthodox Church thread was opened 2 years ago, or the exact same question here about the ethiopians. People would probably send on pics of beautiful Churches, talk about the history, put a video or two of good homilies from their Priests, bring up the councils a little - of course. It begs the question, where are we now, and is this becoming more or less a place of Male Christian Unity in Society as a whole? Or is this webpage a branch apostolate of the ROCOR? To me the former is achievable and the latter, might be preferable to many members but is clearly a cause for members who are not part of these apostolic Churches to indeed leave.

Roosh will have to discern that, if he has not already. It's not for me to worry about such things beyond the simple ask whether this forum is indeed serving it's original intended purpose with respect to Faith, and to ask clearly, "what is the intended purpose of this faith forum is?". Things have indeed changed. Let's be clear on this as Christians are taught to be straightforward and bring things to the light. Some of us might be more than happy to kick the dust off our feet. Yes we will miss the health and lifestyle forum, sharing posts on silver or elements of our faith.... but some things are indeed more important. While the rules might be clear, the practical enforcement and moderation of the forum is where many are seeing a clear difference in the past months.

@InquiringMind you are Catholic, all you have to do is to come home. Eastern Churches such as ROCOR are not actually orthodox in their belief, similar to these oriental Churches they claim the title but do not have it. The Roman Catholic Church is indeed Orthodox. It is not possible to be orthodox without the council of Florence for example.

I wonder if the above comment will get me banned or suspended, but surely if I was a member of the ROCOR I could state the reverse about an oriental orthodox or RCC with impunity.

The Council of Florence clarified the Latin dogma of papal supremacy:

I wouldn't get too worked up about it, NoMoreTO. Do not let your spirit wane because of certain patterns or comments in this forum. One thing Catholics can do is practice custody of the mind and not get into petty arguments. If OP wants to join the "Oldest" Orthodox church founded in wakanda Africa , let him. It is obvious this is becoming a more and more EO forum, that's the reality. They have a popular forum now to congregate and good for them.


This is silly. There's nothing stopping the OP from discussing the Ethiopian church in this thread. It was simply moved because the Orthodox Christianity subforum was not the correct place for it. If you don't accept Chalcedon, you don't fall under the scope of the Orthodox forum.



Wrong. Florence was fake and gay, was rejected by the Church, and the circumstances surrounding Patriarch Joseph's "concessions" to the Pope conveniently found by his deathbed make Jeffrey Epstein's "suicide" seem downright legit in comparison.



Probably not, but you're likely to get ridiculed for making bad arguments.

Any document that seems to be in favor of the Catholic Church and "against" The Orthodox Church is a "forgery" or deemed to be faked or made under duress, etc. I would love to see scholarly research on this very topic instead of a YouTuber or two stating such. Pointing me to such evidence would be appreciated.


Many who tend to place significant importance on the Council of Florence often lose sight of the result of political pressure to push for unification with the Latins to defend against the Muslim Ottomans by Byzantine Rulers. The political landscape can't be ignored and all the various trifilings between different principalities in Europe/Hussite Rebellions/Pope and Anti-Pope... the whole period was full of turmoil...

Ultimately the breakdown is this:

Do you believe that The Pope has the ability to be the titular figurehead and is responsible for speaking for all the Christian world or do you believe that there are multiple heads of Jurisdictions that unanimously decided what the teachings/tradition of the Church are supposed to be?

Regarding Florence: It was not unanimous, was mired in controversy, and was rejected accordingly. Bishops who attended in favor of the union, some may have been sincere, were widely viewed as heretical. Even so it was unsuccessful as Latin aid to Constantinople proved in-effective ( which you might argue was the whole point of the council from a geo-political view.) While there are some Unionate Catholics or Byzantine Right Catholics that do exist... they often invalidate many of the teachings that are espoused by the Catholic Sea such as priests being able to marry.

You have this criticism of the Catholic Church and the Pope, and how "controversial" Florence was, yet you feel at home in a Church that doesn't even recognize the basics of Christ's divine & human nature, recognized by both Eastern Orthodox and Catholic church in 451. That's rich.
 
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iop890

Crow
Gold Member
It's really quite something to see the transformation and I hope that people will reflect on it. I am just imagining if an Armenian Orthodox Church thread was opened 2 years ago, or the exact same question here about the ethiopians. People would probably send on pics of beautiful Churches, talk about the history, put a video or two of good homilies from their Priests, bring up the councils a little - of course.

Do you think it was wrong for people to correct OP when he was obviously under the impression that the non-Chalcedonian churches are Eastern Orthodox? If someone was posting in the Catholic forum about visiting an Anglican church and was under the impression that it was Catholic would you just not correct them?

In my experience it's pretty common for people to conflate "Oriental Orthodox" churches with Eastern Orthodox and then use that as an example of disunity within Orthodoxy, as if that schism didn't happen long before the great schism. So I try to correct that misconception when I see it. It wasn't an attack.

If OP wants to join the "Oldest" Orthodox church founded in wakanda Africa , let him.

This is as unnecessary and dismissive as anything we evil Orthobros said.

You have this criticism of the Catholic Church and the Pope, and how "controversial" Florence was, yet you feel at home in a Church that doesn't even recognize the basics of Christ's divine & human nature, recognized by both Eastern Orthodox and Catholic church in 451. That's rich.

I'm pretty sure he's Eastern Orthodox, not Oriental, so I don't know what you mean here.
 
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get2choppaaa

Pelican
I wouldn't get too worked up about it, NoMoreTO. Do not let your spirit wane because of certain patterns or comments in this forum. One thing Catholics can do is practice custody of the mind and not get into petty arguments. If OP wants to join the "Oldest" Orthodox church founded in wakanda Africa , let him. It is obvious this is becoming a more and more EO forum, that's the reality. They have a popular forum now to congregate and good for them.




Any document that seems to be in favor of the Catholic Church and "against" The Orthodox Church is a "forgery" or deemed to be faked or made under duress, etc. I would love to see scholarly research on this very topic instead of a YouTuber or two stating such. Pointing me to such evidence would be appreciated.




You have this criticism of the Catholic Church and the Pope, and how "controversial" Florence was, yet you feel at home in a Church that doesn't even recognize the basics of Christ's divine & human nature, recognized by both Eastern Orthodox and Catholic church in 451. That's rich.

I think you missed my point. I am not defending the Oriental Orthodox Church. I am not a member of that group, and don't have any real input except that they are in Schism with both Catholic and EO jurisdictions. I merely saying that Florence has major geopolitical context and these things have to be considered when looking it in full context.

I am not bashing the Catholics nor the Orientals here...

Do you think it was wrong for people to correct OP when he was obviously under the impression that the non-Chalcedonian churches are Eastern Orthodox? If someone was posting in the Catholic forum about visiting an Anglican church and was under the impression that it was Catholic would you just not correct them?

In my experience it's pretty common for people to conflate "Oriental Orthodox" churches with Eastern Orthodox and then use that as an example of disunity within Orthodoxy, as if that schism didn't happen long before the great schism. So I try to correct that misconception when I see it. It wasn't an attack.



This is as unnecessary and dismissive as anything we evil Orthobros said.



I'm pretty sure he's Eastern Orthodox, no Oriental, so I don't know what you mean here.
You are correct, he must have misread me somewhere. I go to the EO Church(Antiochian Jurisdiction)
 

Roosh

Cardinal
Orthodox
This is an implicitly Orthodox forum. If you dislike Orthodoxy enough to attack it here, you will be suspended or banned. Many members have also been banned for attacking other denominations with pride, but I cannot provide a safe space for every Christian denomination.
 
It seems this thread got out of hand quickly.
I would just like to make clear a few things.
1. It was never my intention to make this thread into a childish "my denomination is holier than yours" argument.
2. I was not aware of the "Eastern Orthodox v Oriental Orthodox" schism taken this seriously here. had I know this, I would not have started this thread.
3. My thread reflected on my research and my personal experience with the Ethiopian/Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Churches (while briefly mentioning my experiences with other Orthodox congregations.) While I fully understand Roosh's decision for leaving the Armenian orthodox Church, albeit I have serious concerns about all of the Eastern Orthodox Churches both on objective (theological and spiritual) and subjective (my personal observation while visiting them.) Needless to say, I am not going to talk about those concerns here.
4. I don't think there is any need to ban any of the posters here -obviously ultimately that decision belongs to Roosh, as the site owner.
5. Roosh, I am sure you agree : it's probably time to lock this thread.
 
Interesting. I’m rather curious about the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church myself. Recently I was quite surprised to learn that there is an Ethiopian Orthodox church less than one hour away from me and is actually famous for its miraculous holy water!
 
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Hermetic Seal

Kingfisher
Orthodox
Gold Member
I'm not really convinced that this is turning into "an Orthodox forum." There are what, ten frequent posters on here who are Orthodox? There are certainly more Catholic posters on this forum (just compare the number of posts in the Catholic vs. Orthodox subforums) and probably even more who are some form of protestant. And for the most part everyone gets along fine unless there's some particular theological issue under discussion.

Ridiculed for not being a member of your Church you mean. Simple as that.

Dude, I really couldn't care less. Be a member of whatever church you want. This pity-party is unbecoming of you.

Do you see me jumping on the Catholic subforum to gloat about how Pope Francis is a heretic and you're all deluded? No.

Any document that seems to be in favor of the Catholic Church and "against" The Orthodox Church is a "forgery" or deemed to be faked or made under duress, etc. I would love to see scholarly research on this very topic instead of a YouTuber or two stating such. Pointing me to such evidence would be appreciated.

I haven't watched a single "YouTuber" on this subject but since you asked, have at it.

I would also like to remind everyone that I am not a moderator and don't administer the banhammer. If you have some issue with the discussion policy, take it up with Roosh. His forum, his rules - which I've noticed over the past decade or so of reading this place, has generally been pretty fair.

I also don't see any need to lock this thread, as the post above mine suggests, it's as good a place as any for those wishing to discuss the Ethiopian church. Assuming it can stay on topic, I guess.
 
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