TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet

TravelerKai

Peacock
Gold Member
king bast said:
Dalaran1991 said:
Trumpian said:
If you took a middleweight (160lbs) who had placed in some regional golden gloves tourneys, and took him to a dive bar and said "find the biggest guy in here and pick a fight".

The big guy would swing and hit air for a couple minutes, rapidly gas out, and the middleweight would dance around toying with him for a bit. Then boom, counter and KO/TKO him. Every time.

Boxing is severely underrated for self defense. The foot work, speed, ability to find range, and sheer power they can generate via their hands would make even a middling boxer seem superhuman compared to a civilian.



Im not an expert so I wont comment on the rest of the post, TK already did this. Im just commenting on this scenario because it's so ridiculous.

Find the biggest guy in the room and pick a fight with him? I know this is rhetoric, but really? Idon't even know where to start here.

That guy could have a knife, or a gun.
That guy could also be a fighter.
Instead of swinging at you, he grabs you, which actually happens very often in brawl. Now I know you can throw elbows and knees, but so can the other guy.
He grabs you, and he knows BJJ/wrestling.
He swing/throws bottle at you. Bigger guy + improvise weapons?
He is with a bunch of friends.

My 2cents.

But the elephant in the room, is that you're in a dive bar, so the guy is likely drunk. You don't realise what a massive advantage sobriety is over drunkenness until you've worked security, being the sober man in the room and the defense against drunken troublemakers. Sobriety is almost a super power against drunks...but unfortunately it doesn't have the same effect on meth heads, who were starting to grow in popularity towards the tail-end of my bouncing days.

Dudes on painkillers (opiods) are a major issue, especially in the USA. Used to be, back in the old days of MMA cagefighting, in the small venues some of the fighters were chewing some of these pills and would be numb to damn near anything you did to them. Dudes getting their arms broken in armbars without hardly realizing the pain are suspicious as fuck. They did not have all this USADA and dope testing back then. It just was, what it was.

So many people are high on painkillers in the US that are not even thugs, it would be quite hazardous to get into an altercation with random people because if they are not on angeldust, glass(meth), they might be on opiods and numb to pain.

Like you, I did some bodyguard work and drunk people are definately easy to deal with. They are even easy to bullshit into making them feel like they are the coolest person on Earth, the realest nigga alive, and the biggest pimp in the club. Once you talk them out of getting rowdy, they go on bout their way. Those high as fuck dudes are the wildcard and it is not particularly easy to figure out the right way to deal with them, because a fight with them may go badly.

High and drunk women like to take off their 6" heels and swing them as a weapon too. If they catch you not paying attention you will be getting stitches that night.
 
Dalaran1991 said:
Trumpian said:
If you took a middleweight (160lbs) who had placed in some regional golden gloves tourneys, and took him to a dive bar and said "find the biggest guy in here and pick a fight".

The big guy would swing and hit air for a couple minutes, rapidly gas out, and the middleweight would dance around toying with him for a bit. Then boom, counter and KO/TKO him. Every time.

Boxing is severely underrated for self defense. The foot work, speed, ability to find range, and sheer power they can generate via their hands would make even a middling boxer seem superhuman compared to a civilian.

That guy could have a knife, or a gun.

My 2cents.

Ah, good old Mexican Judo. Judon't know until he pulls it out!
 

Dr Mantis Toboggan

Kingfisher
Gold Member
TravelerKai said:
Like you, I did some bodyguard work and drunk people are definately easy to deal with. They are even easy to bullshit into making them feel like they are the coolest person on Earth, the realest nigga alive, and the biggest pimp in the club. Once you talk them out of getting rowdy, they go on bout their way. Those high as fuck dudes are the wildcard and it is not particularly easy to figure out the right way to deal with them, because a fight with them may go badly.

High and drunk women like to take off their 6" heels and swing them as a weapon too. If they catch you not paying attention you will be getting stitches that night.

I worked the door at a bar in Boston years ago and can vouch for this. 98% of fights or near-fights involve dudes, but they're usually pretty easy to deal with--more often than not someone did or said something that caused the other to feel disrespected, no one involved really gives a shit about fighting the other but they just don't want to be seen as backing down, and if the staff steps in and gives them an opening to disengage without feeling like they're going to lose face they'll usually take it.

Girl fights are much more rare...but when they do happen they are trying to fucking kill each other.
 

TravelerKai

Peacock
Gold Member
Yep without a doubt the worst brawls at night I have had the displeasure of dealing with were all from women. One bad thing about them is that when they fight they hit bystanders making them jump in or white knights and orbiters often jump in causing the fight to really out of control.
 

TravelerKai

Peacock
Gold Member
Check out this story:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york...pular-gaelic-football-player-in-head-who-died

Gaelic football player dies after being punched in the head in New York

[img=600x400]https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxn...2/1048/OBrien-McGee-Split.jpg?ve=1&tl=1[/img]

[img=200x200]https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...30d36b5d02efa2960a9d7d04156&oe=5CA67F0E[/img]

This is a big reminder fellas about the difference in body weight and why trading punches with attackers is often a fools errand.

The attacker is 25 and the soccer player is 21. They had a dispute in front of mutual friends at an Irish bar in New York. The scuffle spilled out into the parking lot and the big guy laid him out with a punch and killed him.

Ego is clearly the biggest issue here. Nobody backed off or de-escalated the situation. Pro soccer player guy should have backed off, because he has a lot more to lose than the other guy. Also that guy CLEARLY outweighs him by a great deal.

Look at that square jaw. Look at his high deltoids and shoulder size in the cropped image. Check out the width of his neck. He probably weighs 200-225lbs. The soccer player is likely 160-180 at the very most.

We do not know if the bigger dude was a fighter or not, but he clearly lifts weights if nothing else and he is big with a wide neck.

The larger the neck and jaw, the more punching power can be absorbed.

For you smaller guys that are not 220+ or at least 100kg, you really need to attempt to de-escalate a situation as much as possible because you cannot honestly know what some large men know about fighting. Larger men can possibly be anything from Rugby, American Football, Hockey, Wrestling, or even basketball players and they might be very very physically strong. They may not be capable of using sound technique but if they land a haymaker flush it could put you in a coma.

These athletic men are what I like to call 5%ers. They are more powerful than 95% of the rest of the human population, even if they are years removed from said contact sport. Soccer is hardly a contact sport, more of an endurance sport. Sure the legs are ultra strong, but they are bottom heavy with the quads and hamstrings. They would make good Muay Thai guys, but that is neither here nor there. The fact is that they are weak up top and can get rushed like they are a normal person.

At least basketball players are strong up top and bottom by design from their sport. They also tend to have good height and arm length and understand body spacing at a high level.

Soccer athleticism is absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Also, there is the 800 pound gorilla in the sense that non-Americans have no idea the level of scumbaggery and ruthlessness people in bars and the streets have towards other people in the USA. Fighting in the USA can get you 10 years in prison for assault. In the UK they used to just send lads that scuffle home. Here they send you to prison to fulfill the slavery quota here for the private corporate prison industrial complex.

So if you know this, the only people willing to fight others in public are almost hard criminals when you really think about it. If you can get jail for spitting in the USA, you really have to be bold to throw punches in a non-self defense situation. In fact you really have to be nuts to want to fight strangers in the first place. New York may not have guns floating around white guys, like in Texas, but in general you do not know what anyone has, so it is very unwise to get in people's faces here.

There is also a big age/maturity issue at play here, but if you guys are reading this, likely you are alive because you have probably been humbled enough to make it past 25 to begin with. If you are a lurker and under the age of 25, learn from this and do not get into fights with other young hotheaded people over egotistical shit, and for the love of God, do not fight over women/pussy. There is no excuse for any RVF reader to ever do that.
 

debeguiled

Peacock
Gold Member
TravelerKai said:
So if you know this, the only people willing to fight others in public are almost hard criminals when you really think about it. If you can get jail for spitting in the USA, you really have to be bold to throw punches in a non-self defense situation. In fact you really have to be nuts to want to fight strangers in the first place.

Where I live, the self defense law is barely a whisper, so if you are involved in a fight, you will be charged and the punishments are not light. For that reasons, the hardened criminals, who tend to know the law, avoid stupid fights too.

That leaves violence to people who are mostly out of control.

The term "Monkey Dance," coined by Rory Miller is helpful to explain the dynamic:

https://conflictresearchgroupintl.com/more-on-the-money-dance-rory-miller/

The term Monkey Dance was coined in the book “Meditations on Violence” to describe the human dominance ritual. It’s a deliberately ridiculous name for a ridiculous pattern of behavior. But it is a pattern that young men are conditioned to follow.

It has, or had, it’s purpose. Groups function best with a clearly defined hierarchy. When the status is in doubt, it will be clarified. This is why most Monkey Dances within a group are pretty evenly matched. If status is clear, there is no need.

It’s also done to impress peers and, especially, ladies…and it showcases the things that made a good mate when we roamed the savannah 100,000 years ago: strength and persistence and a willingness to do battle.

Those are also the reason why it is so safe. This is an in-group fight and seriously injuring other members of the group weaken us all. What is less likely to do damage then using the fragile hand bones to hit the top/front of the skull? That is almost always the first move in a Monkey Dance.

We have all seen the script many, many times. It usually begins with a hard look, followed by a verbal challenge, often, as above, “What’re you lookin at?” Both members play and once you get sucked into the script, your normal, logical brain is not in control. Your limbic system has been doing this dance since before humans even existed. It will hijack you.

That's a motivation that might account for stupid and unnecessary deaths like this one.

The male mind, especially the young one, and especially lubricated by alcohol reaches a moment where rational thought take a hike and inborn habits of genetic memory take over.

Hasn't everyone felt this? That fuck it moment? That I've had enough moment? That "yeah I'm saying it" moment?

It is like your mind shifts over to another mode, a mode that sees no law, no size, no possible consequence. It is like when your muffler falls off your car. Yeah, that's me fuckers, the noisy one. So what?

The linked article has a lot to say about this. The basic idea is that the instinctive male monkey dance, as TK points out, doesn't work in the modern era when you don't have a cohesive tribe or species with the same set of rules, when you have no idea who you are talking to.

The key is to recognize yourself taking the bait, following the script, and then consciously stopping participation:


The Monkey Dance is the most common and the most avoidable of the social violence types. It can usually be avoided with a simple apology. It can be defused with submissive body language—an apology, down cast eyes.

It can also often be simply bypassed:

“What are YOU lookin’ at?”

“Huh? Oh, didn’t know. Worked all night last night I must have zoned out for a minute.” Bypassing requires extremely relaxed body language. And a low, slow, slightly puzzled tone of voice really helps. If the guy keeps fishing, treat the follow-ups as thoughtful questions. Don’t Monkey Dance back and don’t become agitated or show anger.
 

Ringo

Pelican
Gold Member
@TK I think you might find enjoy this.

This guy Eero Westerberg - who I believe has been posted about before, he's big into movement, mobility, etc - went to Taiwan to train with a kung fu master called Jiang Yu Shan, aka Hisham Al-Haroun.


I found the body hardening and the chinese medicine-based post-training practices very interesting.

The master's hands and forearms are as hard as rocks. In one of the videos you can see Westerberg comparing hands with him - he couldn't even pinch the skin on top of the master's hands it was so thick and hardened. It's like he's wearing armor.

iron-hands-hisham-jiang-yu-shan.jpg


This guy could probably block a hit with a tire iron and come out with just a bruise, if that. Yet everything is still fully funcional, he didn't lose mobility on wrists, fingers, and so on.

And the master also trains in different martial arts, competes and teaches self-defense, he's not a looney on his mountain top.

It was an interesting perspective into a world I'm not familiar with at all.

I think it's a three-part series - the other videos are on VAHVA's Youtube page.
 

ChicagoFire

Kingfisher
TravelerKai said:
Anyway, retractible/collapsible sticks, knives, etc. while good, cannot replace a solid foundation in self defense.

In that London thread I saw this post:
https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-63079-post-1585200.html#pid1585200

Guys think that dude is brave or whatever, but to me he lacked the skills needed to stop that attack and should have ran. He got stabbed in the neck and cannot talk. Like John likes to say in those videos he makes, gotta have Attitude, Skills, AND a Plan.

I looked this guy up, and apparently he is a boxer and a MMA guy. This is yet again, another reason why I'm constantly telling guys that MMA, BJJ, and Boxing is NOT good for street self defense!

If you see terrorism going on in progress and you have the ability to escape, do it. Do not try and be a hero for that shit especially if you are not armed with anything. If kids are getting mowed down or cut to ribbons, steel yourself and get out of the area. Don't let your emotions get the better of you. You have no idea how long it will take police with guns to stop them, and even if you escape, if they somehow find you and others hiding somewhere, you will have to fight then. No use getting flanked before and stabbed in the neck. It is much easier to fight off an attack from a defensive position, not in an open area full of chaos. A counter ambush from behind a door is light years better than trying to bumrush a terrorist carrying God knows what, empty handed in the open where he has backup that can cut you or shoot you.

Understand the differences between cover and concealment.

Gotta play the long game and have a plan based on solid and effective strategies known to work for centuries.

You do not draw a gun on a drawn gun. Same principle here. Don't lunge at knife/machete wielding attackers. Be in a position to launch a counter ambush. Conceal your draw (gun wise) by turning your waist to a side view so they cannot see you pull it out. This will sound fucked up, but let them stab someone else, then counter ambush them by jumping on them carving up some woman/guy/kid. Disarm him then slice his throat open, then turn his body to your front and use him as a meat shield and move off to the side. Quickly look for the +1. (extra terrorists running around, never assume they are solo), give first aid to the victims after you secure the scene and instruct others to call for an ambulance. You cannot save everyone in a space or room, but you can save most. Always wait for your turn!!!

For vehicle defense, you have to be environment savvy.

1.Avoid areas where you cannot escape through people crowd in.
2. Avoid walking on bridge areas where the traffic is to your back.
3. Always memorize exits.
4. Pay attention to how much egress you have in any walking area, in case you need to jump to the sides and sprint.
5. Walk in the direction facing incoming cars. Don't walk on the edges of sidewalks if you can help it.
6. Check the street before running out there, otherwise you might get smashed harder.
7. Don't assume the police have good barricades in party/festival areas and keep your head on a swivel.


Other than that, jumping at cars trying to hit you is movie shit and that can still kill you easily. Not much else you can do in that case if you do not have a gun to shot the driver.

I'm currently learning systema and need a couple more classes to get the hang of the principles. So apparently from what I've learned a boxing background is pretty much useless in this system (i.e. it's ingrained in me to punch from my shoulders). Russian culture is seriously masculine as fuck, probably why the media hates them so much. Look up whip massage and that's their idea of recovery.

Conducted "systema" search on this thread and I find this gem of a post. I'm fairly street savvy as I've had to walk through the projects late at night with expensive equipment at one of my jobs, etc and even I picked some stuff up ESPECIALLY with the bolded points.

Europe is devolving for anybody that still lives in that death trap either learn martial arts or start moving!

People here probably and hopefully know this but doing what an attacker commands never is a good thing. That's a common theme I'm seeing in the videos on this thread. Obviously if you can run away great but if you're backed into a corner you better know how to counter attack. I remember one of my coworkers telling me that if he/she were to face an armed attacker he/she wouldn't know what to do. WRONG ANSWER!
 

ChicagoFire

Kingfisher
TravelerKai said:
/knuckleheads fighting and one of them gets killed

Pretty much 2 losers lose. One of them is a professional soccer player that is now dead and the other is spending at least 5 years in the crowbar hotel.

This is one of the reasons why I don't go out to bars and I quit doing drugs 5 years ago. Push your limits in other ways but you never know who you're messing with at a bar. Could be white nationalists, black supremacists, Hell's Angels, etc.
 

Rocha

Ostrich
Gold Member
ChicagoFire said:
TravelerKai said:
/knuckleheads fighting and one of them gets killed

Pretty much 2 losers lose. One of them is a professional soccer player that is now dead and the other is spending at least 5 years in the crowbar hotel.

This is one of the reasons why I don't go out to bars and I quit doing drugs 5 years ago. Push your limits in other ways but you never know who you're messing with at a bar. Could be white nationalists, black supremacists, Hell's Angels, etc.

The guys seem to knew each other, they where with the same group of people, must have been some pussy related altercation. A 22 yo kid died also last week here in Lisbon due to stab wounds after a pussy related incident in a club.
 
The London bridge guy "was taking kungfu classes" lol. Also a pudgy 5'6 middle aged man.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ed-neck-terrorists-gets-engaged-soulmate.html

Kungfu is almost universally crap. A genuine kickboxer would keep a knife attacker well away from their neck(using teeps, sidekicks, jabs)..But in any case it's a bad scenario. You don't bring fists to a knife fight.

I don't get the point of raining down on MMA/boxing for self defense though. For any unarmed encounter, it's more than adequate. Not to mention great for overall health.

If the attacker is armed, there's no system that would gurunatee your survival. Better just to accept that, and not be overly afraid of dying.

What other options are there? Most guys aren't going to get special forces level knife training. Outside the U.S, concealed carry is rarely allowed. Best advice for normal joes is to keep the weight off and practice sprints.

I know there's systema, fmj and couple other more combat oriented systems. But really it would be irresponsible to advise amateur middle aged practitioners to stand their ground in a knife attack. So again - back to running is your best solution.
 
Chicago fire, could you expand more on systema style punching?

I wouldn't say boxing punches are from the shoulder. You square your shoulder on the release, but it's a whole body movement really starting with a foot pivot.

Nobody punches harder than boxer so I'm curious how systema does it. Unless they're making adjustments for bare knuckle, which has some significant differences.
 
Traveler Kia...

You said the bigger the neck the better at taking punches... will working out the neck and strenghting the neck help in self defense?? I mean if we are already go to the gym...
 

SteezeySteve

Woodpecker
Neck work,trap work(upper,lower,and middle),and rear delt/upper back size will help prevent concussions and being knocked out. Its even good for preventing injuries from car accidents.
 

Parzival

Ostrich

Talking about body conditioning...


Ego is one big factor that interacts very often negative in the outcome of certain situations. I had injuries with weights because of my ego, I had bar fights because of my Ego and Alcohol.
I'm glad that Germany is still very safe but there are terror attacks, amok runs, knife attacks and violent assaults as well. A lot of stuff you can avoid by avoid certain areas at a certain time, if in a situation react in a smart way. And the end is the mindset, you can train your body as you want - and you should - but the mind matters. Can you turn on the switch in the brain and become lethal aggressive for survival? I'm not sure about myself but I try to visualise something that is worth for me to stay alive. It can be your kids, your wife, your hope. Whatever. The will for survive.
And pure aggression.

A little glimpse of this is in our sparring, there are some guys with good technique but they are not used to sparring. When I stand there strong and not back down they feel intimidate. On the streets a lot of aggressors look for victims, and you make yourself a victim by your appearance, how your body language works. Still there are enough known attacks where there is no confrontation before, just an attack, not even a robbery. Just some hits and knifes and you lay there in your blood with no warning sign before. Hard to prepare for something for that. If someone want to harm you, kill you, the possibility is high that this will happen.
I get a knife proof west but its nothing I can wear daily. Not sure what to get to be protected in this case, maybe a kevlar shirt.

Again something from the girl about knives, not sure how realistic it is, consider her iron bones I'm sure her kicks hurt like hell:


Consider the sudden impact of such an attack, the danger you face, the rush of adrenaline, the fear when you look at some attackers, even at a knife. All your fancy training goes away and you shit your pants. It already need some balls attitude to go into a sparring encounter and exchange fists and kicks for most people. Face some high aggressive attacker, maybe even bigger and stronger is not something you can overcome easy. I have a book about tactical shooting and it says, only 60 % survive a knife attack but 80 % a gun attack. So better face a gun then a knife.

[attachment=40785]
 

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TravelerKai

Peacock
Gold Member
BeardedMastodon said:
Traveler Kia...

You said the bigger the neck the better at taking punches... will working out the neck and strenghting the neck help in self defense?? I mean if we are already go to the gym...

SteezeySteve said:
Neck work,trap work(upper,lower,and middle),and rear delt/upper back size will help prevent concussions and being knocked out. Its even good for preventing injuries from car accidents.

Steve nailed it.

Only thing you can add is what us MMA fighters like to do during camps. We like to use a weight attached to a cloth and put it in our mouths and lift that over and over to make our jaws hard like steel.

There is a massive nerve called the tri-geminal nerve that branches out from both sides of your jaws. All your tooth pain is sourced by this thick root. It also is connected to the nerves at the top of your neck. The two topmost neck bones are a neuro pathway to your eyesight. If impacted hard enough you blackout (aka knocked out).

en3067038.jpg


Hardiness in these areas is paramount if you are serious about competitive fighting for sure, but it also helps tremendously in the street too. Makes you harder to get sucker punched which is a big issue and a massive threat problem.

You can also chew xanthan gum but I prefer the weights. Do not overdo it, you do not want teeth grinding issues at night time.

Another neck exercise you can do are the neck lifts that BJJ and Wrestlers like to do between class, or during stretches:

 

CaptainChardonnay

Ostrich
Gold Member
Parzival, you can get thin stab proof vests, its kevlar you wear under your regular clothes like a undershirt. I think this is what most cops wear.

I've seen photos of German SWAT teams wearing chainmail because of the threat of knives.
 

ChicagoFire

Kingfisher
Systema stresses relaxed body. If you punch under that system it assumes you were severely injured and you're punching at 50%. That's the best way I can explain it since I'm still fairly new to it and the instructor would tell me I'm tensing up my shoulder when I punch (hence punches from the shoulder). From what a fellow student told me after years of doing systema his boxing punches have gotten significantly stronger. You will see on youtube clips that some of these Russians can break wooden boards.

I understand you're punching from your body when boxing but you're still tensing up under that system. I'm not knocking on boxing it's just that there's no correlation between boxing and systema.

Trumpian said:
Chicago fire, could you expand more on systema style punching?

I wouldn't say boxing punches are from the shoulder. You square your shoulder on the release, but it's a whole body movement really starting with a foot pivot.

Nobody punches harder than boxer so I'm curious how systema does it. Unless they're making adjustments for bare knuckle, which has some significant differences.
 
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