TravelerKai’s Martial Arts Datasheet

^It may happen, but it's considered a dirty move in Western countries. Totally acceptable in the rest of the world. That's the difference.

It's not a legend. I can't speak for Germany, but in the U.S if two guys get violent there's an unspoken rule (amongst WASPy types anyhow) that other people not intervene.

That's changing due to cultural enrichment. You can't " Shall we step outside and settle this?" with a 3rd worlder. Just gives them time to call their friends or find a knife. I get so much as the stink eye from those types, I knock them out. Violence is the only language they seem to understand.
 

Parzival

Ostrich
Of course the general opinion is that it should be a fair fight, its a common way to view things here. Just say that the reality is not always like that. Also the concept of a "fair" fight on the street is an oxymoron. What people fight about is mostly not for a noble reason nor is it a sport with a judge. Consider that you can even die in some cases when you get a slap with an open hand and you fall wrong.
I agree that with enrichers you have to be a way more careful.
 

KC4

Kingfisher
I think this quote applies to when it comes to street fights.

"You learn to have a really good sucker punch, and a really good 50 yard dash"-Jorge Masvidal
 

Repo

Hummingbird
Trumpian said:
^It may happen, but it's considered a dirty move in Western countries. Totally acceptable in the rest of the world. That's the difference.

It's not a legend. I can't speak for Germany, but in the U.S if two guys get violent there's an unspoken rule (amongst WASPy types anyhow) that other people not intervene.

That's changing due to cultural enrichment. You can't " Shall we step outside and settle this?" with a 3rd worlder. Just gives them time to call their friends or find a knife. I get so much as the stink eye from those types, I knock them out. Violence is the only language they seem to understand.

Have you ever actually witnessed this though? Because between two strangers I certainly haven't, and I've witnessed quite a good deal of fights here in the US.
 

ElFuerte

Chicken
If you want to be able to defend yourself in the street, you need:
1) boxing
2) wrestling to avoid being taken down
Everything else is less effective in street situations, and some things like aikido are downright useless.

Here's a great video by Jocko on real martial arts that actually work
 

Subtext

Sparrow
This is a great list, OP. The most interesting thing to me is the principle of "internal strength". What are the various avenues I can take to learn internal strength most directly, and how do I spot bullshido peddlers?
 

Subtext

Sparrow
Trumpian said:
I still wanna see one video of these Shaolin monk types beating a boxer, Thai boxer, MMA fighter, etc.

I've scoured YouTube and can't find one. If they can punch "2-3 times harder" it should be an easy task.

There's a 40 yr old MMA guy in China (and a pretty mediocre one at that) who's been going around the country beating the shit out of these "masters". I'd really like to see a legit one come out of hiding and show off some of the techniques.

No, you definitely haven't, because I searched "monk vs. boxer" and a bunch came up.

Here's just one:

 
Subtext said:
Trumpian said:
I still wanna see one video of these Shaolin monk types beating a boxer, Thai boxer, MMA fighter, etc.

I've scoured YouTube and can't find one. If they can punch "2-3 times harder" it should be an easy task.

There's a 40 yr old MMA guy in China (and a pretty mediocre one at that) who's been going around the country beating the shit out of these "masters". I'd really like to see a legit one come out of hiding and show off some of the techniques.

No, you definitely haven't, because I searched "monk vs. boxer" and a bunch came up.

Here's just one:


That's Yi Long, he's not nor has he ever been a shaolin monk lol. That's just his stage name/shtick. He's a sanshou kickboxer.

Sanshou is a hodgepodge of styles the chinese military put together for their hand to hand combat training. It's legit.

And still no proof of hitting 2-3x harder. I've seen much worse KOs.
 

Subtext

Sparrow
Trumpian said:
Subtext said:
Trumpian said:
I still wanna see one video of these Shaolin monk types beating a boxer, Thai boxer, MMA fighter, etc.

I've scoured YouTube and can't find one. If they can punch "2-3 times harder" it should be an easy task.

There's a 40 yr old MMA guy in China (and a pretty mediocre one at that) who's been going around the country beating the shit out of these "masters". I'd really like to see a legit one come out of hiding and show off some of the techniques.

No, you definitely haven't, because I searched "monk vs. boxer" and a bunch came up.

Here's just one:


That's Yi Long, he's not nor has he ever been a shaolin monk lol. That's just his stage name/shtick. He's a sanshou kickboxer.

Sanshou is a hodgepodge of styles the chinese military put together for their hand to hand combat training. It's legit.

And still no proof of hitting 2-3x harder. I've seen much worse KOs.

I don't suppose you've considered the possibility that these individuals that you're disparaging are more interested in perfecting themselves than impressing random people on the internet? In any event, nothing you've said really dissuades me from taking OP seriously in his claims.
 
Do I suppose that there's Chinese monks skipping out on $10 million paydays cause they're perfecting their souls?

I don't think anybody believes that.

I'm not interested in dissuading you, and the burden of proof isn't on me. The claim was there's martial arts that can punch 2-3x harder than a boxer, and there's no evidence for that.
 
Unusually, I have interests that diverge both the Chinese Kung Fu world and the Sport Fighting martial arts world.

I've never seen anything, ever, to suggest that these tales of monks' punching power to be anything other than nonsense.
 

Subtext

Sparrow
Saweeep said:
Unusually, I have interests that diverge both the Chinese Kung Fu world and the Sport Fighting martial arts world.

I've never seen anything, ever, to suggest that these tales of monks' punching power to be anything other than nonsense.

You don't even have to go to the far East to see accounts of such things. The English had the most effective method of punching the head ever conceived (just read Colonel Monstery's treatise), and it was easily multiples stronger than any modern boxer - bareknuckled, too. But then Jack Boughtonis ruined the sport with his rules, so most of those techniques just faded.

I'm going to go out on a limb and wager you think Bruce Lee was a fraud.
 
Subtext said:
Saweeep said:
Unusually, I have interests that diverge both the Chinese Kung Fu world and the Sport Fighting martial arts world.

I've never seen anything, ever, to suggest that these tales of monks' punching power to be anything other than nonsense.

You don't even have to go to the far East to see accounts of such things. The English had the most effective method of punching the head ever conceived (just read Colonel Monstery's treatise), and it was easily multiples stronger than any modern boxer - bareknuckled, too. But then Jack Boughtonis ruined the sport with his rules, so most of those techniques just faded.

I'm going to go out on a limb and wager you think Bruce Lee was a fraud.

I am English and have no idea what you're talking about? Would you care to elaborate?

Bruce Lee is my hero.

The reason being that without him the martial arts boom of the 70s may never have happened in the West and I wouldn't have a business, the legacy of the boom is a small network of Kung Fu schools I own alongside my considerably larger kickboxing business.

All my sifus have spent decades in China cumulatively. Sure they're strong, dangerous guys in streetfight scenarios...but in the ring, they are useless.

I'm no kung fu expert but I don't see much different about their punching to most karate styles...which begs the question if they're so powerful...why did the Japanese dump them for Western boxing in their kickboxing? The answer is clear.
 
^Not only the Japanese but the Thais (and surrounding countries) all incorporated Western boxing into their styles. Because it's superior. There's nobody in the fight world questioning this lol.
I'm going to go out on a limb and wager you think Bruce Lee was a fraud.

Who can say? He never fought any world class boxers or kickboxers.

The vids I saw of him punching the heavy bag just look like typical wing chun powerless shoulder punches. A boxer/kickboxer would have walked him down in the ring.

Funny you mention Bruce Lee though..because even he said Western boxing/wrestling was vastly superior to kung fu.

That's why he tried to create a new style. Wing chun didnt work.
 
When I first started training in Thailand, many years ago now when Phuket for instance only had a small handful of gyms not the 200 or whatever of today, the trainers were all older and "pre-western-boxing-punching" trained.

Coming from a lifetime of Western Kickboxing, I was blown away by their kicking and clinching skills. But frankly, their boxing was just shit.

The new generation, the kind of trainers you'd find today pretty much universally were trained with a Western boxing guard and punching and are considerably more rounded and harder to deal with.
 

heavy

Hummingbird
Gold Member
ElFuerte said:
If you want to be able to defend yourself in the street, you need:
1) boxing
2) wrestling to avoid being taken down
Everything else is less effective in street situations, and some things like aikido are downright useless.

Here's a great video by Jocko on real martial arts that actually work

That's a great summary video from no-nonsense Jocko. I've been training just over 2 years in BJJ (first combat anything I've done, I basically played rec basketball and lifted before that), and I'm addicted. I was actually a bit surprised at the order of training he offers...BJJ, boxing, muy thai, etc. I'd be curious what his reason is to start with BJJ (even though I did): How much is because that's what he did, and how much because he thinks it makes logical sense.

Regardless, my opinion would be to do whatever keeps you coming into the gym consistently for at least a year.

For me (and this may be Jocko's reasoning), BJJ stuck because it's so cerebral. I may or may not move on to train some striking (I have a couple times), but for me starting out, I don't think boxing or muy thai would have had the appeal to keep me going 3-4 days a week that first year.

It's weird, because now, (1) it's just a part of my life and schedule, (2) I'm rolling with friends now instead of simply gym people (more social reward), and (3) I'm better now, so I don't get beat up constantly every roll. I'm also entering the sweet spot of being a blue belt, where I have all the fundamentals down fairly well and now learning the tricks and combos to be dangerous on the mat.

I think back to that first year. It was very difficult many times to go into the gym. Far more difficult than to lace up some shoes and run a few miles. More like lacing up some shoes and run a few miles faster than I ran last time, every time (which I attempted in college and burned out fast).

Also, I took a jiu-jitsu vacation and it was the best week and a half of my life. Probably schedule another one this year.
 

Dr Mantis Toboggan

Kingfisher
Gold Member
heavy said:
Also, I took a jiu-jitsu vacation and it was the best week and a half of my life. Probably schedule another one this year.

Where did you go, if you don't mind sharing? I'm thinking about doing either Origin Maine or a BJJ Globetrotters camp this year. Also considering a ~10 day trip to Brazil and just winging it down there which would have the advantage of being able to poosay hunt as well, but not sure if I'm skilled enough in BJJ (6 month white belt) or Portuguese (nonexistent beyond a tiny bit of broken Spanish) to make the most of that.
 
I think Jocko recommended BJJ because it was an older guy asking, and its a very soft martial art.

Not many middle aged guys are going to last long in a muay thai or boxing gym. Getting leg kicked and punched in the face sucks.
 

DarkTriad

Ostrich
Gold Member
ElFuerte said:
If you want to be able to defend yourself in the street, you need:
1) boxing
2) wrestling to avoid being taken down
Everything else is less effective in street situations, and some things like aikido are downright useless.

Here's a great video by Jocko on real martial arts that actually work

Great video. I think it's worth noting that not just boxing but all 3 of the first hand to hand systems he named for best self defense were sport based. The system explicitly designed for self defense came in fourth. This has been consistent with my experience.

I've done many years self defense based systems, and found that the overall effectiveness of the sport based systems for self defense were just better. There are a lot of theories to account for this (one of my favorites is that the brutal Darwin of regular competition forces faster, more efficient development than systems based more on theory) but the most important thing is to adapt your theories to your facts than trying to a adapt the facts to your theories.

some things like aikido are downright useless.

Not entirely accurate...I could use some of Aikido off angle movement stuff effectively....AFTER I had learned how to do the same kinds of off angle movement using the radically more efficient boxing training methodology.

This was a major trend in my training, the "live" arts tended to make my "pure" self defense techniques dramatically more effective with the superior timing/distancing/understanding etc. I got from them.

A lot of the "self defense" was weak sauce/almost worthless until I did the hyper-efficient sport systems and understood the principles behind them and their execution to make them work.

The best greater combat metaphor I can give is the German 88mm Flak gun in World War II. It was designed as an anti-aircraft gun, but turned out to be really good at all kinds of things it wasn't designed for - desert warfare, infantry support, tank busting. etc. It was better at tank busting than any of their purpose built anti-tank weapons.
The smarter generals quickly picked up on this and used it to their advantage. It was so good that by the end of the war they were mounting it on their own tanks because it was just better at tank warfare than anything they previously had on their tanks.

A lot of martial arts guys get hung up on whether something was "designed" for something as opposed to whether it's it's an effective tool for something and it hampers their understanding of combat.
 

Wutang

Hummingbird
Gold Member
Saweeep said:
Subtext said:
Saweeep said:
Unusually, I have interests that diverge both the Chinese Kung Fu world and the Sport Fighting martial arts world.

I've never seen anything, ever, to suggest that these tales of monks' punching power to be anything other than nonsense.

You don't even have to go to the far East to see accounts of such things. The English had the most effective method of punching the head ever conceived (just read Colonel Monstery's treatise), and it was easily multiples stronger than any modern boxer - bareknuckled, too. But then Jack Boughtonis ruined the sport with his rules, so most of those techniques just faded.

I'm going to go out on a limb and wager you think Bruce Lee was a fraud.

I am English and have no idea what you're talking about? Would you care to elaborate?

I'm no kung fu expert but I don't see much different about their punching to most karate styles...which begs the question if they're so powerful...why did the Japanese dump them for Western boxing in their kickboxing? The answer is clear.

Same with a lot of Dutch 'Thai boxers'. The arm strikes used in that style is taken from boxing rather than Muay Thai (despite them calling their style "thai boxing") or karate/TKD (despite a lot of those fighters having their root style in TKD and karate).
 
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