Ukraine about to elect Jewish comedian as president

Oberrheiner

 
Banned
Believe what you will, I won't bother discussing this any further.
Like I said, if you want to know, some people are still here.
Not my problem, this way or the other.
 

Mage

 
Banned
Fuck you commie. I have nothing but disgust and hatred against your evil kind.

Count Pyotr said:
Nonsense. Most of soviet born russians say that the Soviet Union was the “good old days” of Russia.

You lie when you say it's the most. Those who do say stuff like that were corrupt co-participants to the regime or/and people who are too old and senile to accept any change, even one for the better.

Count Pyotr said:
And actually many positive things came out of the Soviet regime.
Positive for state and "progress" is not the same as positive for individuals and freedom.

Count Pyotr said:
- Transformed an illiterate country into a country where 99% of people could read, and placed Russia the number one nation of college graduates in sciences, history and arts (and to this day some 60% of russian have university diplomas, and most are very well read and by-and-large, far more learned in classical arts - literature, painting, music - than western or american people).

This is true but it has to do with faults of capitalism rather then (non-existing) bonuses of communism. I consider this to be a fake duality and consider neither perfect, but capitalism much better then communism.

Count Pyotr said:
- Transformed a country where people died like in the middle ages of curable diseases to a healthy state with universal health care.

This has to do with global development of medicine in 20th century and happened worldwide aside from Africa, no special credit is due to Soviet Union here.

Count Pyotr said:
- Developed the first true model of welfare state (education, eradication of unemployment, same rights for all citizens, secured pension, annual leave with free mandatory four weeks vacations, sick leave, maternity leave, etc)

- Party members had more rights, women having the same rights is bad.
- Pensions are evil curse the still plague the former soviet nations. People need to make their old years prosperous trough children not trough taxation and slaving for the state.
- If you have enough money you can leave for vacation and sickness and maternity whenever you want, but the welfare would give you these limited bonuses and tax you out of ever earning enough money to decide for yourself the limits of your leaves.

Count Pyotr said:
- Invested heavily in applied sciences and transformed into one of the top world’s scientific power.

Many scientists worked in "sharaskas" - concentration camps for scientists and were forced to deliver. This falls under category "good for state and progress, but bad for individuals and freedom".

Count Pyotr said:
- Achieved a highly effective industrialization process (1928 to 1938) - the Soviet Union industrialized at a faster rate than any other country previously had, which improved the lifestyles of its citizens.

All it did was enable half of the nation to be effective enough to feed the other half of the nation that was in military or in prison and have a limited set of goods left for themselves.

Count Pyotr said:
- Aided to industrialize, create education and health systems to middle eastern, asian and african countries.

What?


Count Pyotr said:
- Started the space race, and won it.

Soviets managed to do some things first like send first animal and first man and first woman in space by ignoring safety procedures and subjecting them to greater risk then USA, who caught them on just a few months later anyway. First man in space Yuri Gagarin died in relative poverty, the state cared little about him later, but he was forced to participate in all sorts of tiring propaganda events.

Space race was won by USA, by landing on Moon. Something Soviets never could repeat.



Count Pyotr said:
Also people had security and never had to worry about crime, debt, jobs, homelessness or lack of food (after WWII), and had a spartan but dignifying life.

People had no security from a paranoid state that could take any person to gulags for tiniest of offenses or even tiniest of unproven suspicions. Crime was rampant in USSR, with government being the biggest criminal.
Food shortages were a common thing, shops were empty constantly, not quite to starvation level, but still nutrition was poor.
Lifestyle was not dignifying as you had to undergo various humiliation compliance tests from the state, like participate in parades you don''t believe in, be forced to lie , be denied of freedom of speech and be asked to snitch on your family members and friends constantly.
[/quote]
 
Like I said, I'm not a communist, but this is getting absurd.

Mage said:
Fuck you commie. I have nothing but disgust and hatred against your evil kind.

You lie when you say it's the most. Those who do say stuff like that were corrupt co-participants to the regime or/and people who are too old and senile to accept any change, even one for the better.

No, not really. Most average people do believe that. Also no idea what "change for the better" you are referring to, because certainly nothing of that sort occurred in former USSR during the 1990s. Relatively good standard of living pre-1989 to ... total societal and economic disintegration, oligarch-run mafia state, formed with the participation of Western capitalists trying to make money at the expense of the population? Not the kind of change I would support or want to see. Compare the capitalist era to the effectively national socialist system before that. Gee, I wonder which is more beneficial on the practical level to most people.

After the end of the USSR, 80% of the population was living in squalor and poverty, millions of people were dying as a result with virtually nothing they can do about it, but hey at least they have the abstract idea of "freedom" available to them now.

Also this kind of individualistic indifference to the concerns of the older generations of people, fellow countrymen, sounds like something some atomized lolbertarian would say.

Mage said:
Positive for state and "progress" is not the same as positive for individuals and freedom.

There are more important things than individuals and freedom. Most people simply cannot exist as completely abstract sovereign individuals in a void. Look at the West now. The current situation there just shows that order and hierarchy are far more important in a society than some abstract notion of "muh individualism" and "muh freedom". America today has arguably the culturally and religiously freest society in history, and it is currently in the process of self-destruction.

Mage said:
Space race was won by USA, by landing on Moon. Something Soviets never could repeat.

By relying on knowledge originally developed by National Socialist Germany, and on the same scientists. The US didn't really have its own space program, but rather the German space program. Russia actually had its own space program.

Also, Yuri Gagarin died in a plane crash at a very young age.

Mage said:
Crime was rampant in USSR

Nowhere near on the level of post-Soviet Russia. Not even comparable.
 

911

Owl
Catholic
Gold Member
Reinhard von Lohengramm said:
@911, I was not talking about the early USSR. The fact is that by the later decades the USSR was basically nationalist and conservative in opposition to the globalist neoliberal West under Reagan.

Also not sure where you got the 65 million number, which sounds pretty ridiculous. Not to defend the Bolsheviks, but that does not make sense. The population of the Russian empire in 1897 was about 125.6 million, in 1926 the Soviet population was around 147 million, and in 1959 about 208 million. Given that population growth the 65 million purged figure sounds totally absurd, especially when combined with the 30 million WW2 casualties.


You're looking at official Soviet population figures at face value here.

If you annually cull 1%-2% of the total population in a country the size of the USSR over several decades, you will easily be able to reach the tens of millions in cumulative deaths. Early on in 1917-30 that cull rate was probably a lot higher than 2%, in rural areas or the Ukraine it was a lot higher than that.

You have no idea of the extent of the early/mid 20th century gulag camp network. Solzhenitsyn, who has been through it and dedicated a lifetime of research on this, estimated that the total Soviet body count was 66 million, based also on the research of statistics professor Kurganov.

R.J. Rummel, an American PoliSci prof who has focused on this subject, came to an estimate of 61 million, showing his detailed research in this book, available here with appendices and charts:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM

USSR.TAB1.1.GIF


Some interesting reads on the subject,

https://beam-truth.livejournal.com/5582191.html

this page linked above references research done by an Israeli academic who, in a rare display of tribal introspection, attributed the main role in this genocide to Jewish soviets:

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

Whole population strata were eliminated: Independent farmers, ethnic minorities, members of the bourgeoisie, senior officers, intellectuals, artists, labor movement activists, "opposition members" who were defined completely randomly, and countless members of the Communist party itself. {note: he doesn't mention Christian clegy and their parishes, who were massively targeted and culled}

...Lenin, Stalin, and their successors could not have carried out their deeds without wide-scale cooperation of disciplined "terror officials," cruel interrogators, snitches, executioners, guards, judges, perverts, and many bleeding hearts who were members of the progressive Western Left and were deceived by the Soviet regime of horror and even provided it with a kosher certificate.

"Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU's deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD. Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin's collectivization orders and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people. His Jewish deputies established and managed the Gulag system.

Stalin's close associates and loyalists included member of the Central Committee and Politburo Lazar Kaganovich. Montefiore characterizes him as the "first Stalinist" and adds that those starving to death in Ukraine, an unparalleled tragedy in the history of human kind aside from the Nazi horrors and Mao's terror in China, did not move Kaganovich.

Many Jews sold their soul to the devil of the Communist revolution and have blood on their hands for eternity. We'll mention just one more: Leonid Reichman, head of the NKVD's special department and the organization's chief interrogator, who was a particularly cruel sadist.

...The Jews active in official communist terror apparatuses (In the Soviet Union and abroad) and who at times led them, did not do this, obviously, as Jews, but rather, as Stalinists, communists, and "Soviet people." Therefore, we find it easy to ignore their origin and "play dumb": What do we have to do with them? But let's not forget them. My own view is different. I find it unacceptable that a person will be considered a member of the Jewish people when he does great things, but not considered part of our people when he does amazingly despicable things.
 
The Soviet census figures largely align with Western intelligence estimates of the Soviet population. Also, modern Russia today would not have 143 million people if that was true.

Solzhenitsyn is a joke. Nobody in Russia takes him seriously. A lot of his claims were made up.
 

911

Owl
Catholic
Gold Member
Count Pyotr, the dumbest aspect of your posts here is that you're posting praises of the Soviets with that handle... Do you realize that all the Russian aristocracy, their entire families and social circles, were systematically exterminated?

The Bolsheviks/Soviets did kill 60 million plus people, but wow, they brought universal healthcare to those that they didn't exterminate, how wonderful that was!


Of course the Soviets never taught the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of those they didn't kill about the real history of the USSR. For many of these, their baseline is the neoliberal globo-ashkenazi rape and pillaging of the 1990s, which totally devastated what was by the 1970s-80s a stable 2nd world country, still a lot more liveable than the more bloody and repressive eras of Lennin-trotsky-Stalin. Hence the rose glasses view towards the USSR days.


My original point stands, the fact that the social ills in FSU countries (esp. Ukraine) stem from the decades of extermination of their best people and the undermining of their societies in the early and mid-20th century.
 

911

Owl
Catholic
Gold Member
Reinhard von Lohengramm said:
The Soviet census figures largely align with Western intelligence estimates of the Soviet population. Also, modern Russia today would not have 143 million people if that was true.

Solzhenitsyn is a joke. Nobody in Russia takes him seriously. A lot of his claims were made up.

The West and the people running it were propping up the Soviets, right from the start, with the financing of the Bolsheviks in the 1910s/20s, on to the massive land-lease transfers of funds, technology and raw materials in later decades through the 1950s. That might be a bit outside of your Overton window though.

Yeah, people in Russia care more about rap and Louis Vuitton bags than Solzhenitsyn, that's the product of 100 years of a successful communist then neoliberal indoctrination. It's not like he was a fixture in your educational system and media, or the oligarchs who now own the entire system are particularly fond of his historical testimony and philosophical views...

Modern Russia is severely underpopulated, it would have had a population closer to 180-200 million without the culls. Today, it has the lowest population density of any country in Europe except Iceland, much lower than Scandinavian countries with similar weather distribution.
 

Mage

 
Banned
Reinhard von Lohengramm said:
Like I said, I'm not a communist, but this is getting absurd.

If you speak like a communist I will assume you are one. If you object that you are merely a socialist or whatever - I don''t care, all leftists are commies in the end.


Reinhard von Lohengramm said:
No, not really. Most average people do believe that. Also no idea what "change for the better" you are referring to, because certainly nothing of that sort occurred in former USSR during the 1990s. Relatively good standard of living pre-1989 to ... total societal and economic disintegration, oligarch-run mafia state, formed with the participation of Western capitalists trying to make money at the expense of the population? Not the kind of change I would support or want to see. Compare the capitalist era to the effectively national socialist system before that. Gee, I wonder which is more beneficial on the practical level to most people.

Wait, so you are using the transitional period of 1990 as comparison? You dishonest piece of shit. Of course there will be troubles in transitional period. Basically you are saying that communism is better then capitalism because the transitional period is rough. You are disgusting piece of liar shit using false comparisons.

Most people detest communist regime. Those who are for it are deluded and have forgotten that it was bad. Some people recognize that it was a mix of much bad with some good, but most people would not want to return to that time.

Reinhard von Lohengramm said:
After the end of the USSR, 80% of the population was living in squalor and poverty, millions of people were dying as a result with virtually nothing they can do about it, but hey at least they have the abstract idea of "freedom" available to them now.

That is because the state crushed and there were no law. It was neither Communism, nor Capitalism it was chaos. It was a transitional period.

Every occupied former soviet state that broke free went trough that period knowing it is transitional and everyone feels much better now when that transition is over.

Only some of those that remained in Russia have warm feelings about the Soviet past because of the perceived might of the state at that time. They are losers and slaves in their soul.

Reinhard von Lohengramm said:
Also this kind of individualistic indifference to the concerns of the older generations of people, fellow countrymen, sounds like something some atomized lolbertarian would say.

You only select to be sympathetic with those wish for old times to return, but you ignore those who fear the old times like fire because their faith was oppressed or their themselves were sent to gulag or oppressed.

Reinhard von Lohengramm said:
There are more important things than individuals and freedom. Most people simply cannot exist as completely abstract sovereign individuals in a void. Look at the West now. The current situation there just shows that order and hierarchy are far more important in a society than some abstract notion of "muh individualism" and "muh freedom". America today has arguably the culturally and religiously freest society in history, and it is currently in the process of self-destruction.

If you believe there are things more important then freedom then you are a commie. You are a corrupt individual who wants to sell freedom for some comforts you cannot live without.

For an individual to be able to function in freedom that individual and that society must have morality. Something atheist commies like you understand nothing about.

The problem of America today is lack of morality. America was great and people were free while morality was high. Once morality is gone, ability to perform under freedom goes away too.


Reinhard von Lohengramm said:
By relying on knowledge originally developed by National Socialist Germany, and on the same scientists. The US didn't really have its own space program, but rather the German space program. Russia actually had its own space program.

Also, Yuri Gagarin died in a plane crash at a very young age.

Germans were not commies. So if you say it all is due to Germans then it still is no argument for Soviet system. Also it is stupid to think that American success in 60ties is only due to German inventions in 40ties. Also Russians also benefited from German discoveries trough the medium of spying.

Germans+Americans came up with Nuclear weapons first. Commies were only able to copy that success due to spying and stealing a lot of scientific info. Sure Russians had brilliant scientists too. Russians are white people with high IQ, just like Germans. But the soviet system does not get credit for that.


Reinhard von Lohengramm said:
Mage said:
Crime was rampant in USSR

Nowhere near on the level of post-Soviet Russia. Not even comparable.

Again you are comparing communism to a chaotic transitional period, not to an established free-market system. This is just a dishonest comparison. It's like saying that you should not drink medicine, because it is bitter.
 
(I got on to another account to reply to these posts).

Mage said:
Wait, so you are using the transitional period of 1990 as comparison? You dishonest piece of shit. Of course there will be troubles in transitional period. Basically you are saying that communism is better then capitalism because the transitional period is rough. You are disgusting piece of liar shit using false comparisons.

Most people detest communist regime. Those who are for it are deluded and have forgotten that it was bad. Some people recognize that it was a mix of much bad with some good, but most people would not want to return to that time.

"Troubles in the transitional period" is a mild way to put total societal and economic disintegration that led to millions of deaths. Obviously such a system that leads to that outcome is not desirable, regardless of whether or not that is the intention. I also like how you say it's "dishonest" to point out the result of the capitalist system in the 1990s. It's in no way a false comparison. That's like saying that the period before WW2 was a transition from the Russian empire to communism so all of the destruction caused by the Soviets during that time is OK because it's just transitional.

And it's not as if the modern state of Russia is much better. Sure the situation has improved considerably since 2000, but it is still pretty far behind Western Europe. The USSR was still much better by comparison to the current condition, thirty years after the end of communism.

Again, not sure who you are referring to because most people do acknowledge that the USSR was far better than anything Russia has had since then.

Mage said:
That is because the state crushed and there were no law. It was neither Communism, nor Capitalism it was chaos. It was a transitional period.

Every occupied former soviet state that broke free went trough that period knowing it is transitional and everyone feels much better now when that transition is over.

Only some of those that remained in Russia have warm feelings about the Soviet past because of the perceived might of the state at that time. They are losers and slaves in their soul.

No. Most people in the five Central Asian countries, in Moldova, and even Ukraine recognise that the USSR was far better. All of the former Soviet republics are all still far behind Western Europe, being some of the poorest countries in Europe. If the transition is over, then this is the end result?

Mage said:
You only select to be sympathetic with those wish for old times to return, but you ignore those who fear the old times like fire because their faith was oppressed or their themselves were sent to gulag or oppressed.

If you believe there are things more important then freedom then you are a commie. You are a corrupt individual who wants to sell freedom for some comforts you cannot live without.

For an individual to be able to function in freedom that individual and that society must have morality. Something atheist commies like you understand nothing about.

The problem of America today is lack of morality. America was great and people were free while morality was high. Once morality is gone, ability to perform under freedom goes away too.

Why do you think there is a lack of morality? It's imposed by society. A society of totally free atomised individuals loses its morality, as we can see today. Also calling people who think there are more important things than freedom just makes you sound like a Boomer. Order, hierarchy, and stability are far more important the abstract and meaningless sense of "freedom," the logical conclusion of which is nihilism, lack of morality, and the death of religion. Ironic that you also make accusation of "atheism," when a free individual society will naturally stop being religious.


Mage said:
Germans were not commies. So if you say it all is due to Germans then it still is no argument for Soviet system. Also it is stupid to think that American success in 60ties is only due to German inventions in 40ties. Also Russians also benefited from German discoveries trough the medium of spying.

Germans+Americans came up with Nuclear weapons first. Commies were only able to copy that success due to spying and stealing a lot of scientific info. Sure Russians had brilliant scientists too. Russians are white people with high IQ, just like Germans. But the soviet system does not get credit for that.

No, the Germans had a better system, national socialism. They certainly weren't capitalists. They developed their space program, which was then taken by the Americans and used as the foundation of the "American space program," while the USSR developed its program mostly indigenously.

Mage said:
Again you are comparing communism to a chaotic transitional period, not to an established free-market system. This is just a dishonest comparison. It's like saying that you should not drink medicine, because it is bitter.

"It's not real capitalism!" lol.
No, the transition period is still a product of capitalism. The chaos of the 1990s was a free market system. Again, saying that capitalism is not responsible for any destruction it causes is dumb. Just like saying communism was not responsible for the millions of deaths it did cause in the 1920s and 1930s.

911 said:
The West and the people running it were propping up the Soviets, right from the start, with the financing of the Bolsheviks in the 1910s/20s, on to the massive land-lease transfers of funds, technology and raw materials in later decades through the 1950s. That might be a bit outside of your Overton window though.

No, I am fully aware that the early Bolsheviks were funded by the Anglo-American Establishment. Then they were assisted during WWI by German intelligence to overthrow the imperial regime in Russia. As Carroll Quigley wrote in Tragedy and Hope, Russia has long been a problem for the western establishment, which is why they funded not only the Bolsheviks but the liberal revolutionaries as well. As a monarchist I have never been a supporter of the early Soviet Union and would have preferred the emperor and the Russian Empire to remain.

All of that is irrelevant if we are talking about the later period of history, 1960-1990, at which point the USSR was essentially a nationalistic, socially conservative force opposing the neoliberal globalism of Reagan.

911 said:
Yeah, people in Russia care more about rap and Louis Vuitton bags than Solzhenitsyn, that's the product of 100 years of a successful communist then neoliberal indoctrination. It's not like he was a fixture in your educational system and media, or the oligarchs who now own the entire system are particularly fond of his historical testimony and philosophical views...

Modern Russia is severely underpopulated, it would have had a population closer to 180-200 million without the culls. Today, it has the lowest population density of any country in Europe except Iceland, much lower than Scandinavian countries with similar weather distribution.

Neoliberalism and globalism took hold because the Soviet Union ended the sense of purpose and great power fulfilment that the country's status had given people. As Zbigniew Brzezinski also wrote in Grand Chessboard, the end of the Soviet Union also represented the loss of much of the Great Russian Empire. This is one of the biggest cultural problems, as the end of the USSR caused an identity crisis and emptiness that is still a problem today. The Soviet system by the 1980s was basically Russian nationalism and represented a continuation of the power of Great Russia from the tsarist predecessors. So the dissolution of the Soviet Union was a blow to the national psyche.

Russia's population growth has been pretty consistent, and it has always been under-populated, especially during the much bigger Russian Empire. If 95 million people died as a result of WW2 and purges, then the population today would be far lower than it is. If the population of the bigger empire was 125 million around the turn of the last century, and around 286 million in the USSR in 1989, that does not seem likely if there was a period in between with 95 million deaths.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sgt

911

Owl
Catholic
Gold Member
Thanks for the detailed responses, I see where you come from. Some quick answers to your points:

- The USSR was not a socially conservative country in the 1960s-80s. for example, women were working at higher rates than in the West, when they only started joining the wokforce "en masse" in the 1980s. Women were more masculine than in the West, working in blue collar jobs, and with their female athletes dominating. Abortion was always legal throughout the eastern block, and Christianity was still harshly suppressed.

Soviet women seemed a lot more like the modern American or Australian women, and western women were still quite feminine through the 1980s. It seems like the situation flipped today with third wave feminism sweeping the west today while the FSU went back to a more classic ideal, also corresponding with a revival of the Church in many parts of this region...

North Korea is the one example of a socially conservative socialist country, they ban women from wearing pants, encourage feminine behavior, and families. I don't think the Soviet bloc was quite like this. One of my older cousins, who was a classical pianist, attended a conservatory in the GDR in the late 70s and ended up living there, she said it was a less conservative society than in France or even the Federal Republic.

-On the population: I think a large part of the purges was misattributed to WW2 losses, up to half of the 30M labeled as war losses, as a way to hide their crimes. The same way for example the Soviet propaganda blamed their large massacres of Poles on the Nazis.
 

Rocha

Ostrich
Gold Member
The only starving white women in Ukraine are the senior pensioners.

The major thing that comes from this election is that anybody appart from Poroshenko and the other longtime politicians could have won.

Ukraine is fucked up. People don't know what they want.
They made the orange revolution in 2004 to get rid of Yanukovich and elected Yuschenko, then a couple years later elected again Yanukovich, and the Messiah Yuschenko was proven to be another corrupt. Then came Maidan...Yanukovich out again, and Poroshenko filled the gap in some elections arranged at lightning speed. After a while the Messiah was the dirty Georgian scumbag Sakaashvili...

Zelenskiy might be a lesser evil for Ukrainians. Seems like a good guy, with some humanity in him. I hope to not be wrong.

I guess I was wrong about the last part
 

Pointy Elbows

Pelican
Orthodox
Highly recommend pages 1-3 of this thread for pertinent background on Russia-Ukraine war. I respect the differing opinions in the last two pages, but they go past my historical understanding a bit.

I know that some ethnic-Ukrainian Ukrainians thought Zelensky was soft on Russia during the election. He's proven the opposite in time, even if it is just to please his strange set of masters (formerly Kholomoisky, currently US gov't). The guy really is an empty suit, role-playing what his directors tell him to play. IMHO, Z is a great shill for establishing a "Greater Israel," as "lesser Israel" is running out of good land and the current tribal ethnic stock has more actual history in Khazar than in Palestine. The tribe needs a little lebensraum, and Country 404 is ripe for the picking.

Well worth the time to read this thread.
 
Top