Understanding the Arabs - The Closed Circle

[TheMaleBrain]

Zionists in the Middle East have always behaved the same way. Since day one they sent death squads like the Hagana and Irgun to ethnicaly cleanse Palestine from its native Semitic Palestinian population in favor of the Slavo-Germanic Yiddish invaders.

Alexandrian
Both the organizations you are stating were started almost 40 years after "Day One" (1882 beginning of the First Aliya).
You have got to be kidding on the "ethnic cleansing".

The next link is in Hebrew, but I'll translate some points, which are facts:

In 1882, the land was not empty. There were 140,000 permanent residents, out of which 40,000 were Jews

During the years 1870-1914, which overlap most of the early Zionist movement, the number of Arabs in the land grew by 71.4% (the highest in the region accept in Egypt)

I know that the Jewish people are not popular. We have made our effort to support this notion. But being here is also about finding out the truth and not just throwing around slogans.

One thing I will give you:
The west bank had quite a lot of Jews in 1948. None remained after the war. It was completely cleansed, by the Arabs.

If you want to continue the dialogue, we can do it offline (in PMs/email), or here. It is not my intention to attack, but to provide evidence supporting my side. I'm fully ready to acknowledge a lot of bad behavior on my country's part.

 

[TheMaleBrain]

One other thing:

Read this article.
It is a Palestinian Scholar, who is honest. Read what he says about his leadership and his analysis.

 

[CamelToe]

Male Brain I'm not surprised that you are living isolated and have been raised in a world full of propaganda but even by Jewish accounts the population of the Palestine was way higher than 140,000 in 1882.

according to Jewish Virtual library which isn't considered to be unbiased the population was 24,000 Jewish 276,000 Arab in 1882 300,000

Ottoman and British records show higher population of Palestinians which would be a more realistic/unbiased records.
"population of Palestine in the early 19th century was 350,000, in 1860 it was 411,000 and in 1900 about 600,000 of which 94% were Arabs"


Are you suggesting that Israel currently has good leadership?

Lastly, I would assume that your in-depth understanding of the Middle East comes from all the time you've spent in Arab countries?

 

[tomtud]

Lots of subtitled videos on a YouTube channel called memri tv. These videos are a library of shows, documentaries and talk shows in the Middle East that show a glimpse of Arab society. The problems in it and who is to blame.

 

[CamelToe]

MEMRI operates as one of the main sources of Israeli propaganda.... It's well understood and MEMRI isn't considered to be a reliable source among regional experts/policy makers. It was founded and is run by former IDF intelligence officials.

If you want to know about regional TV news then watch Mosaic as it's at least considered to be less fear mongering.

 

[TheMaleBrain]

Male Brain I'm not surprised that you are living isolated and have been raised in a world full of propaganda but even by Jewish accounts the population of the Palestine was way higher than 140,000 in 1882.

according to Jewish Virtual library which isn't considered to be unbiased the population was 24,000 Jewish 276,000 Arab in 1882 300,000

Ottoman and British records show higher population of Palestinians which would be a more realistic/unbiased records.
"population of Palestine in the early 19th century was 350,000, in 1860 it was 411,000 and in 1900 about 600,000 of which 94% were Arabs"


Are you suggesting that Israel currently has good leadership?

Lastly, I would assume that your in-depth understanding of the Middle East comes from all the time you've spent in Arab countries?

CamelToe

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said the current leadership was good.
Quoting myself:

We have made our effort to support this notion

As per numbers - found another source is based on this website:

in 1878 there were 462,465 subject inhabitants of the Jerusalem, Nablus and Acre districts: 403,795 Muslims (including Druze), 43,659 Christians and 15,011 Jews. In addition, there were perhaps 10,000 Jews with foreign citizenship (recent immigrants to the country) and several thousand Muslim Arab nomads (Bedouin) who were not counted as Ottoman subjects

.

My bad, It was 25K Jews. out of ~500K, which some of them are part of Lebanon and Syria (Acre district). So it was 5-8% before the first Alliya.
The 140K refers to Jerusalem district.

 

[CamelToe]

anyways minus this other discussion.

I read this book about 10 years ago and wasn't impressed. In fact if I remember correctly the author admits to not being an expert in the Middle East. (so why should I read a book where he claims to know this/that) Secondly much of his analysis was shortsighted and he clearly doesn't understand the complexities of society (any society not just the Arab world) by trying to generalize everything into his spectrum/"western understanding"

But I should still assume your analysis of it being a good book is also based on your experiences traveling throughout the Middle East?

 

[TheMaleBrain]

Have been to Egypt, and Lebanon and have met Arabs in Israel and the West Bank and Gaza.

I find his analysis comprehensive. No one has monopoly on the truth, even myself.
However, this guy makes good points and back them up with data.

We can agree to disagree.
My point is that it adds knowledge to understanding the situation.

If you are ever in Israel again, feel free to drop by. Any RVF member is a friend of mine.

 

[CamelToe]

I'll pm you next time I have time. I'm usually in WB or Gaza every couple of months

 

[germanico]

But they do have big brother China, where most of the world's stuff is now made.

China gives two shits about North Korea, they just dont want anyone else meddling in their neighbourhood.

To understand foreign policy and oil interests in the Middle East, read The Prize by Daniel Yergin: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004T4KKSA

He does an amazing job at explaining the history of oil, and thus oil wars, interventionism in the Middle East (or any other oil producing company) and why such countries are kept poor in spite of their huge resources.

 

[Prince of Persia]

The establishment of the Zionist Jewish settler state of Israel at the expense of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Christian and Muslim Arabs and that state's subsequent behaviour has some way to do with Arab grievance towards the West.

You cannot blame said Palestinians for having a massive grudge against the so called state of Israel and demanding the right of return to their lands as stipulated under the Geneva Convention, i.e. international law

Muslims have no right of return to Israel/Palestine, because they themselves are invaders, colonizers, and occupiers of Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel/Palestine, Egypt, Libya, Sudan, etc. When Muslims colonists have been removed from all those occupied states, I suppose they can have the "right" to return to Saudi Arabia.

Damn right!! How come no one ever talks about the fact that the Arabs invaded the Persian Empire, forced the Zoroastrians to convert to Islam by sword, and are thereby responsible for the current barbaric Islamic leadership in Iran?!

Arabs are tribal and closed-off. Always have been, always will be. There really isn't much else you need to know about the Arab world other than that, IMO. Furthermore, both Israel and the Arab countries need to figure their shit out because each party is at wrong.

 

[Byzantium]

Arabs are tribal and closed-off. Always have been, always will be. There really isn't much else you need to know about the Arab world other than that, IMO. Furthermore, both Israel and the Arab countries need to figure their shit out because each party is at wrong.

The Muslims are never going to admit to being even partly wrong, other than as tactic to be in better position to make more demands.

The best thing that could be done for peace would be expelling all Muslims form Israel.

For peace between the West and Islam, send all Muslims back to Muslim countries, remove the remaining Christians, don't let Islam expand outwards, and all that aggression gets turned inward upon themselves.

And all Jews get sent back to Israel. Give the Jews more Muslim land even, just as long as they're removed, especially the ones on the Federal Reserve, Supreme Court, etc.

 

[Prince of Persia]

Arabs are tribal and closed-off. Always have been, always will be. There really isn't much else you need to know about the Arab world other than that, IMO. Furthermore, both Israel and the Arab countries need to figure their shit out because each party is at wrong.

The Muslims are never going to admit to being even partly wrong, other than as tactic to be in better position to make more demands.

The best thing that could be done for peace would be expelling all Muslims form Israel.

For peace between the West and Islam, send all Muslims back to Muslim countries, remove the remaining Christians, don't let Islam expand outwards, and all that aggression gets turned inward upon themselves.

And all Jews get sent back to Israel. Give the Jews more Muslim land even, just as long as they're removed, especially the ones on the Federal Reserve, Supreme Court, etc.

It's nice to theorize, but we both know that that could never possibly by implemented. I would love to live in a country that wasn't a slave to Israel and that didn't have Zionists running the show and calling the shots from every single industry, but who are we kidding.

Realistically, what we should do is slowly cut off ties with Israel and show them that we can't be their bitch any longer. I can picture McCarthy-esque hearings against American Zionists; they'll be the new Soviet sympathizers, to be mocked as degenerates. The same should be said for Saudi Arabia, the global sponsor of radical jihadist terrorism, as well.

 

[Alexandrian]

Arabs are tribal and closed-off. Always have been, always will be. There really isn't much else you need to know about the Arab world other than that, IMO. Furthermore, both Israel and the Arab countries need to figure their shit out because each party is at wrong.

The Muslims are never going to admit to being even partly wrong, other than as tactic to be in better position to make more demands.

The best thing that could be done for peace would be expelling all Muslims form Israel.

For peace between the West and Islam, send all Muslims back to Muslim countries, remove the remaining Christians, don't let Islam expand outwards, and all that aggression gets turned inward upon themselves.

And all Jews get sent back to Israel. Give the Jews more Muslim land even, just as long as they're removed, especially the ones on the Federal Reserve, Supreme Court, etc.

Reply to my other comment.

 

[Alexandrian]

Have been to Egypt, and Lebanon and have met Arabs in Israel and the West Bank and Gaza.

I find his analysis comprehensive. No one has monopoly on the truth, even myself.
However, this guy makes good points and back them up with data.

We can agree to disagree.
My point is that it adds knowledge to understanding the situation.

If you are ever in Israel again, feel free to drop by. Any RVF member is a friend of mine.

There is something I was curious about for years. What is generally the ideal future outcome of the Middle East-conflict according Israeli's? Netanyahu is doing his best to maintain the status quo, but do regular Israeli's support this?

 

[TheMaleBrain]

Most Israelis would love to have peace, and travel to Arab countries.
Most of us assume that the peace would come (eventually), but we are very worried about our security. We know that there will be exchange of territories to achieve peace (It was offered 2 times in the past in the peace talks of 2000 and 2008).
Netanyahu has the support of about 20% of the people. The Israeli Knesset (Parlament) is very fragmented, and the Likud (Netanyahu's party) has 25% of the seats. So he is the only one able to form a coalition.

Most Israelis, as I'm sure that most people worldwide, want to live their life in peace, raise families and do business.
However we assume that peace is not going to happen in the coming years.

 

[Alexandrian]

Most Israelis would love to have peace, and travel to Arab countries.
Most of us assume that the peace would come (eventually), but we are very worried about our security. We know that there will be exchange of territories to achieve peace (It was offered 2 times in the past in the peace talks of 2000 and 2008).
Netanyahu has the support of about 20% of the people. The Israeli Knesset (Parlament) is very fragmented, and the Likud (Netanyahu's party) has 25% of the seats. So he is the only one able to form a coalition.

Most Israelis, as I'm sure that most people worldwide, want to live their life in peace, raise families and do business.
However we assume that peace is not going to happen in the coming years.

I understand.
It's a very tough situation. Both groups are stuck in a vicious cycle. Palestinians attack Israeli's because of bombings and settlement policy, and the Israeli's bomb Palestinians and build settlements because of the Palestinian attacks.

 

[Pride male]

What are they fighting over? What valuables are in Israel? Sand dunes?

 

[Prince of Persia]

Arabs are tribal and closed-off. Always have been, always will be. There really isn't much else you need to know about the Arab world other than that, IMO. Furthermore, both Israel and the Arab countries need to figure their shit out because each party is at wrong.

The Muslims are never going to admit to being even partly wrong, other than as tactic to be in better position to make more demands.

The best thing that could be done for peace would be expelling all Muslims form Israel.

For peace between the West and Islam, send all Muslims back to Muslim countries, remove the remaining Christians, don't let Islam expand outwards, and all that aggression gets turned inward upon themselves.

And all Jews get sent back to Israel. Give the Jews more Muslim land even, just as long as they're removed, especially the ones on the Federal Reserve, Supreme Court, etc.

Reply to my other comment.

Expelling Muslims?

Jewish is an ethnicity and religion. Muslim is only a religion. Zionism, therefore, exists because Jews have an ETHNIC claim to their land, as Germans have an ethnic claim to Germany, Poles have an ethnic claim to Poland, etc. Muslims do not have any claims to any land because Muslim is not an ethnicity.

The militant form of Islam that is being used by Hezbollah, ISIS, etc. is (pun intended) radically different than the form of Islam that Joe 6 Pack practices. As Louis XIV once said, "One King, One Law, One Faith"; aka Islam is highly politicized and just used to round people up under a common cause. That being said, Islam definitely needs bottom-up reform a la the Protestant Reformation to expel the terrorists.

 

[Alexandrian]

Arabs are tribal and closed-off. Always have been, always will be. There really isn't much else you need to know about the Arab world other than that, IMO. Furthermore, both Israel and the Arab countries need to figure their shit out because each party is at wrong.

The Muslims are never going to admit to being even partly wrong, other than as tactic to be in better position to make more demands.

The best thing that could be done for peace would be expelling all Muslims form Israel.

For peace between the West and Islam, send all Muslims back to Muslim countries, remove the remaining Christians, don't let Islam expand outwards, and all that aggression gets turned inward upon themselves.

And all Jews get sent back to Israel. Give the Jews more Muslim land even, just as long as they're removed, especially the ones on the Federal Reserve, Supreme Court, etc.

Reply to my other comment.

Expelling Muslims?

Jewish is an ethnicity and religion. Muslim is only a religion. Zionism, therefore, exists because Jews have an ETHNIC claim to their land, as Germans have an ethnic claim to Germany, Poles have an ethnic claim to Poland, etc. Muslims do not have any claims to any land because Muslim is not an ethnicity.

The militant form of Islam that is being used by Hezbollah, ISIS, etc. is (pun intended) radically different than the form of Islam that Joe 6 Pack practices. As Louis XIV once said, "One King, One Law, One Faith"; aka Islam is highly politicized and just used to round people up under a common cause. That being said, Islam definitely needs bottom-up reform a la the Protestant Reformation to expel the terrorists.

The genetics of the 'Children of Israel (Quranic: Bani Israil)' is present among the modern populations of Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria (Levantine Arabs). The Ashkenazim (zionist) Jews that came from Europe are judaised white Europeans. Probably of Slavic and Germanic ancestry. Although, I wouldn't be surprised if Mizrahi jews have some Hebrew Israelite ancestry.

As an Egyptian I claim Egypt as my ancestral land. The Byzantine dude above said that Egyptians need to be expelled to Saudi Arabia just because we are muslim.

The only thing that Islam needs is the eradication of wahhabism, the source of islamic terrorism. The oil-barons from Najd pump millions in the promotion of their sick desert sect. ISIS is based exclusively wahhabi/kharijite. What is worth mentioning is that the British actively supported the wahhabi Saud dynasty from Najd to take over the moderate Hijaz during WW1.

Hezbollah has a different story. They don't care about converting people or slaying infidels. Many Lebanese Christians and Sunni's support Hezbollah. They are just in a political blood feud with Israel.