Universal Basic Income - And argument in favour

Unconditional Basic Income

This is actually a libertarian not a progressive idea.
Sure billions like Bill Gates and Elon Musk like it, but that's because one, they hope to remove minimum wage, improving their profits, two, they know AI will kick millions out of the workforce, and if two many people die, it will hurt the economy and their businesses.

Pros:

Can allow us to remove minimum wage, which will benefit every sector in the country, and end the export of labour overnight. Weakening China massively and reducing their influence on America's and the worlds economy.

Starting a new business is easier which creates competition. Not just easier, some studies have found that instead of not working, many people take that money and use it start businesses. This means that not only do you no longer have homeless and starving, the poor and starving will want to work. Even better, without minimum wage, as long as the work environment is good they will work for very little since just having someplace to go and hangout with people your age is a very good thing, and many people find work satisfying.

People can also finally focus on career paths they love and try new things, which will have a much harder to see effect but will make people happier and more hardworking in my opinion.

Can reduce regulation in business finally. This is essential. If we keep regulating, eventually, we are going to not be able to do, anything. We'll literally be paralysed by the millions of regulations, or more likely, like in the EU, businesses will simply pay government employees so they can avoid the law, contributing to Cronyism and making the current situation worse.

No minimum wage means there's no incentive to employee people in foreign countries, no incentive to employee illegal immigrants. I don't need to explain why this is good.

Businesses like Walmart that pay their employees as little as possible and are basically receiving tax payer money through social security will go out of business.

Big Business hates this because it will massively improve competition and destroy them. I hate Big Business, and also this will hate Gab defeat, maul to death, and feast on the corpse of twitter.

Unlike other stupider government handouts, this is a right, not something Big Government or Big Business can take away for saying mean words on twitter. Government Handouts allow them a means of control, and handouts will exist as long as there are people who can't survive they will exist. Unless we change this, we are doomed to eventually be put in chains by Big Government and Big Business. You know what that means?


“The definition of fascism is The marriage of corporation and state ”​


― Benito Mussolini



Competition improves the economy:

Government funds itself by printing money, not increasing taxes, if this fails to raise the value of the currency and inflation causes problems, that can be solved by raising taxes on businesses that have a monopoly instead of breaking them, which encourages to create competition themselves.

Corporate tax bracket:

While taxes should be reduced, and income tax flat out removed, Corporations that have no profit should receive no taxes. Businesses that spend everything on the product should be encouraged, and those that are scared of taking risks or just want fat bonuses every year should be punished harshly. We should be careful about taxes, but money that isn't used should be taxed.

Thinking about the future:

Israel enacted a policy where the person who makes the most money in a business can not earn more than 40 times the lowest person in a business. I think this is a stupid idea and reduces freedom, but maybe higher taxes on businesses that have employees in management that earn 40 times more than the highest paid employee not in management, after 400 years, of that business existing. And if the business isn't liked by at least 50% of the public.

Crowdfunded military? :
To reduce Government spending we need to fix their overspending on military, fortunately most of that is just Veterans benefits. This isn't essential, but may help. Maybe keep it Government paid, but allow crowdfunding/donations, and make it so that donating can allow you access to knowledge that isn't classified. Like knowledge of where the money is going, tours of bases and weapons projects? Imagine spending a million dollars to donate to the Gen 6 aircraft program, and being able to take your kid to see them being tested at an airbase?
 
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Troller

Pelican
It´s a stupid idea by stupid people. The goal is to create slaves dependent of government. It´s a commie idea. Money should be given to mothers. Families who have children. I think woman should be paid to have babies. And be paid to be mothers. And also more benefits. Any woman who decides to endure the joy and burden of being a mother should be richly rewarded. If not they stop being mothers. Like it´s happening in west. Money should go to families. Backbone of any healthy society.

That bullshit UBI was tried in Finland. A flop. Nothing changed for the person who receive it. Only became more dependent.

 
It´s a stupid idea by stupid people. The goal is to create slaves dependent of government. It´s a commie idea. Money should be given to mothers. Families who have children. I think woman should be paid to have babies. And be paid to be mothers. And also more benefits. Any woman who decides to endure the joy and burden of being a mother should be richly rewarded. If not they stop being mothers. Like it´s happening in west. Money should go to families. Backbone of any healthy society.

That bullshit UBI was tried in Finland. A flop. Nothing changed for the person who receive it. Only became more dependent.


Yes it is. But stupid works, stupid does. No it isn't, it's oops

I made a typo

I called it Universal Basic Income instead of Unconditional Basic Income.

I apologise. This is a grave sin. May God have mercy on me, for you should not.




Anyway...

We have to make it illegal for the government to refuse UBI to anyone, even Billionaires. It should be a human right. No it's not a Commie idea, didn't the founding fathers think having a home should be a right? Also, Commies don't give you things unconditionally, they have food lines for a reason. You make you beg and grovel, the government has power and you do not, so you call your neighbours comrade, because they are your Comrades in a war that never ends, where every day you risk starvation, you risk being killed for a question. You cannot gain power, for there is no business to rise through the ranks. And even if you could, as seen in China, the CCP killed the richest man in China. They happily kill rich people. Because Communism cannot survive if the Rich have power. It can let them have influence, but not the power to oppose them.

The rest of what you say I agree with. Raising a child costs money afterall. However, think about it. Unconditional means unconditional. Unborn babies would get UBI. Now obviously they can't actually use it. So their parents would either save it, invest it, or use it themselves. Which would benefit mothers.

Also, as detailed in my argument, having no minimum wage improves flexibility. That means Mothers with children can work part time, or from home for less pay, instead of having to hire a nanny, or give up their career, which many modern women refuse to do. Your solution doesn't fix that.
 

Rob Banks

Pelican
It´s a stupid idea by stupid people. The goal is to create slaves dependent of government. It´s a commie idea. Money should be given to mothers. Families who have children. I think woman should be paid to have babies. And be paid to be mothers. And also more benefits. Any woman who decides to endure the joy and burden of being a mother should be richly rewarded. If not they stop being mothers. Like it´s happening in west. Money should go to families. Backbone of any healthy society.

That bullshit UBI was tried in Finland. A flop. Nothing changed for the person who receive it. Only became more dependent.

I agree with giving tax breaks to families (i.e. two-parent households). But actually paying women to have babies? Just look how bad the foster care system is in the US (foster parents are paid for what they do). And also, all the ghetto single mothers who purposely get knocked up in order to get more welfare money.

Not the best idea.

Wouldn't you grow up feeling a little bit conflicted if you knew your mother never really wanted you and only had you in order to game the welfare system?
 
The reality of the matter is welfare is coming whether you like it or not...why let the blacks and latinos have it all? Besides if we can get the money printer to go brrr even more we may hasten the implosion of the country.
Hey, stupid works.

78-adolf-hitler - stupid.jpg
Billionaires should receive Unconditional or whatever you want to call it? Ok I´m unplugging for the rest of the day. Because I might get a suspension. Looll. You made me laugh. Man you made me laugh. Thank you. WTF.
Like I said. Stupid works. And it's it not a right if some people don't get it. Who decides what is a billionaire? If you earn more than a million, who's to say Big Government won't take away your UBI, if they don't like you, attack your business, and leave you without income to survive, on the streets? This way, even a billionaire knows he can take risks, because if he loses it all, he can simply climb to the top all over again.
If everybody has a dollar that dollar is worthless. Socialism breeds sloth. UBI is just more smoke and mirrors for the proles to swallow.
Everyone in America has a dollar though. This doesn't give people outside America dollars either, though it does encourage charity organisations which isn't a bad thing. Charity is always better than the government giving handouts, and if the government is giving Pakistan millions of dollars for gender studies through a Covid relief bill, maybe you should make your government a little scared with bipartisan populism?
I agree with giving tax breaks to families (i.e. two-parent households). But actually paying women to have babies? Just look how bad the foster care system is in the US (foster parents are paid for what they do). And also, all the ghetto single mothers who purposely get knocked up in order to get more welfare money.

Not the best idea.

Wouldn't you grow up feeling a little bit conflicted if you knew your mother never really wanted you and only had you in order to game the welfare system?

Not if she is legally obliged to pay you back every single penny she received in your name. After all, if it's your money, she has to be a good Mother for you to let her keep it.
 
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What new business will you be starting with a grand or so a month? Will you be having bake sales? How many people will that employ?
I haven't specified the amount. I'm not sure how much is worth it. That said, the USA spends 600 billion dollars a year on their military, most of which is Veterans benefit. If you think about it, having so many government programs, is inefficient and wastes money on administration and auditors, when instead you could have one big program, that has to give every American citizen money. This would streamline most efficiencies, and would have to be transparent to avoid any malpractice. It would eventually have problems in the future, but as long as people predict and prepare for them, I would argue this has great potential to be successful.

Oops, I went off on a tangent, let me answer that properly.

OK. So think about it, if everyone gets a grand a month, that means everyone has extra money. Extra money for emergency healthcare, for food, for rent ect. A grand isn't enough to live without working. But it gives you capital. You can use that to invest, or by working with lots of other people, pool that 'disposable income' together, and start a business.

Now the real double whammy, and I call it the retard exploit, basically requires two things. Enough UBI money to live off of anywhere in the country. And zero minimum wage laws. And no taxes for companies that don't earn profit. This would make starting a new business incredibly easy, all you would need is to save enough capital to buy the property, find employees willing to work for you for a really low price, and spend all revenue so that you never make a profit. I don't think this is viable yet. But once we fix some societal problems, it should be in the near future. This does require strong communities to be viable. That means a higher church attendance, people going outside more, and a few other things I haven't seen. It could be viable today though, with a lot of luck in my opinion.
 

Brother Abdul Majeed

Kingfisher
Gold Member
I haven't specified the amount. I'm not sure how much is worth it. That said, the USA spends 600 billion dollars a year on their military, most of which is Veterans benefit. If you think about it, having so many government programs, is inefficient and wastes money on administration and auditors, when instead you could have one big program, that has to give every American citizen money. This would streamline most efficiencies, and would have to be transparent to avoid any malpractice. It would eventually have problems in the future, but as long as people predict and prepare for them, I would argue this has great potential to be successful.

Oops, I went off on a tangent, let me answer that properly.

OK. So think about it, if everyone gets a grand a month, that means everyone has extra money. Extra money for emergency healthcare, for food, for rent ect. A grand isn't enough to live without working. But it gives you capital. You can use that to invest, or by working with lots of other people, pool that 'disposable income' together, and start a business.

Now the real double whammy, and I call it the retard exploit, basically requires two things. Enough UBI money to live off of anywhere in the country. And zero minimum wage laws. And no taxes for companies that don't earn profit. This would make starting a new business incredibly easy, all you would need is to save enough capital to buy the property, find employees willing to work for you for a really low price, and spend all revenue so that you never make a profit. I don't think this is viable yet. But once we fix some societal problems, it should be in the near future. This does require strong communities to be viable. That means a higher church attendance, people going outside more, and a few other things I haven't seen. It could be viable today though, with a lot of luck in my opinion.
Yeah, when I start earning an extra grand a month I'll be able to buy a property and inventory for my business in about 60 years or so.
 

Brother Abdul Majeed

Kingfisher
Gold Member
Who says you need to buy a property? Most small businesses rent at first. And again, you can actually do that. Also, if you invest, you could do so quicker.
I have owned businesses that have employed dozens of people. The jobs I created fed families and put kids through university as well as responsibly paying for the health care of those families. It was strenuous being responsible for all that. I spent many worrying nights during hard times wondering how I could juggle all those balls and make the whole thing work without disappointing other people and letting them down. I went without just so I could ensure my employees received what they had earned.

I'm guessing you have never owned a business in your life. Just my guess from what you are saying in this thread.

UBI is one of the most dangerous concepts. Why not just give everyone welfare? Do you think people will pool their money together and create trucking industries, pipelines, build apartments for low income people, etc, etc?

Stop dreaming. It seems like you want to live a life without challenges. Why not just become a drug addict?
 

Aboulia

Woodpecker
What if, we already have a UBI, in the form of a breath. We were given the gift of life. That's your UBI. You can do whatever you like with it.

Outside of that, it's a pipe dream. If you're being handed free things you destroy all incentive to work. If you do not work, you die. Money is never given without strings or without an end in mind. Even if it were this imaginary free money, who would want to operate inside your currency system, I know if I was a store owner, I wouldn't accept your monopoly money and prefer to use some form of real wealth.

No minimum wage means there's no incentive to employee people in foreign countries, no incentive to employee illegal immigrants. I don't need to explain why this is good.

So you plan on giving this UBI to everyone else in the world? What makes you think you can get the entire world to agree? Especially when you state that you think it will "weaken China", and if you don't think you'll give it to the entire world, and if you're not giving it to the entire world, what makes you think people won't circumvent it and hire those not receiving it at a wage under the UBI?

Government funds itself by printing money, not increasing taxes, if this fails to raise the value of the currency and inflation causes problems, that can be solved by raising taxes on businesses that have a monopoly instead of breaking them, which encourages to create competition themselves.

You're assuming private central banks will just magically relinquish control?

Israel enacted a policy where the person who makes the most money in a business can not earn more than 40 times the lowest person in a business. I think this is a stupid idea and reduces freedom, but maybe higher taxes on businesses that have employees in management that earn 40 times more than the highest paid employee not in management, after 400 years, of that business existing. And if the business isn't liked by at least 50% of the public.

That's sounds similar to a Hitler-Germany policy, which is not surprising because Germany was responsible for building a lot of Israeli infrastructure. The point is for the owner to re-invest the money in the company and pay your workers a fair wage. It also hamstrings the corporations that hand out "fat bonuses" while not paying their employees very well.

I don't even know what you mean by "freedom". What exactly do you want the "freedom" to do?

P.S. Fascism is gay and should have died with Mussolini.
 

tothepoint

Woodpecker
I recommend you check out Zeitgeist Addendum. It was pseudo-documentary arguing that money should be banned and that technology is the solution to poverty. The ideas proposed were interesting.

I don't like UBI because people are lazy...productivity follows the Pareto distribution. Anybody who worked in a corporation or worse, in a government job knows very well that the majority of the workforce is just wasting time. Give them free money and they'll resign the next day. You will end up with a population of parasites not entrepreneurs eager to start their own thing.

Even then, UBI would have to be under the form of food and basic necessities not discretionary income. You would also need a small population with high IQ to make it work.
 
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Troller

Pelican
I agree with giving tax breaks to families (i.e. two-parent households). But actually paying women to have babies? Just look how bad the foster care system is in the US (foster parents are paid for what they do). And also, all the ghetto single mothers who purposely get knocked up in order to get more welfare money.

Not the best idea.

Wouldn't you grow up feeling a little bit conflicted if you knew your mother never really wanted you and only had you in order to game the welfare system?
No. I wouldn´t care. The burden is too high on women. They have to work and take care of house. Not letting women work might be better. But I don´t think that´s happening anytime soon. The alternative is ease the burden. Women should be at home. Or if they work because they get bored or have to it can´t conflict with their motherhood. Women shouldn´t have to chose between having a child and not having financial security. A lot of women work because they have to. Not because they want. Of course the ghetto rats are a problem. Bureaucracy could probably solve it.
My wife nowadays we don´t have staff because of chinese virus. She tells me I will never again complain of our staff. Never. Ahahaha.
 
Obviously, UBI has the implicit goal of cementing oligarchic rule whilst reducing the entire population to atomized consoomers. We are not all equals, nor do we utilize money equally, nor do we create (or extract) equal value to society and our neighbors.

I am not huge on material possessions or status symbols/displays of wealth, but i would never be content in a system where I couldn't have the option to overachieve and outperform. Even if I fail. If there's no way to get ahead, why make any effort at all.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone pushing for UBI is resigning themselves to embody the "useless eater" moniker the elites really think we all are.
 
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