Universal Basic Income - And argument in favour

Gimlet

Kingfisher
Starting a new business is easier which creates competition. Not just easier, some studies have found that instead of not working, many people take that money and use it start businesses. This means that not only do you no longer have homeless and starving, the poor and starving will want to work. Even better, without minimum wage, as long as the work environment is good they will work for very little since just having someplace to go and hangout with people your age is a very good thing, and many people find work satisfying.

What are these studies you reference, please cite them.
 

budoslavic

Owl
Gold Member
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Thomas More

Hummingbird
I think people that receive UBI will generally be sober minded, thrifty, hard working and responsible.

They will use the opportunity that UBI provides to improve their long term status, and that of their children. Society as a whole will clearly benefit from this.






:laughter::laughter::laughter::laughter::laughter::confused::laughter:







Oh, I think reparations for BIPOC will work out this way too!!!
 

Aizen

Kingfisher
UBI would be a disaster for those of lower IQ. The line of thinking would be something like: "free money = no need to work! Alright!" In a country like America, where the majority are unfortunately not the sharpest tools in the shed, this would lead to sloth-like behavior and ultimately social breakdown.

This type of system could work in high-trust, high-IQ societies, but only if people continued to work. UBI would have be a supplement to their ongoing income. Places like Norway already have UBI of sorts; if you lose your job or are unable to work, then the government will fully support you until you get back on your feet. But this only works because Norway is a high-trust, high-IQ society, where people understand that working keeps their country's gears turning. The desire for self-actualization plays a part here too, as well as a strong collective mentality.

There's absolutely no way this would work in the US, as it would just morph into a worse form of totalitarianism. Remember that most American politicians hate average American people, so the intent would never be to empower and enrich the commoners. UBI could possibly work in other countries, though its success fully depends on how it's implemented.
 

get2choppaaa

Pelican
UBI is enslavement and dependency.

Why else would liberal politicians promote this? Why would the same people who want to destroy American Heratige want to push this if it didn't serve to control the masses.

Nevermind the obvious tax this will create on small businesses. Its just like minimum wage, a inflationary device to benefit major coprorstions and oligarchs whose market share and resources trump small independent businesses.
 
After consideration, I have come to the undeniable conclusion that regardless of whether this idea could function in the real world, as long as the far lefts power continues to grow unhindered it would only strengthen them, and give them the tools to control us easier as several in this thread have already rightly pointed out.

Right now, an unknown number of people involved in government handouts are either centre or even perhaps rightwing. Removing these programs and replacing them with a single national UBI would give the left the opportunity to remove anyone not loyal to them, and gain far greater control over the populace permanently. As such I will be shelving this idea for the foreseeable future.

However the current situation requires more solutions not less. So I have devised a method of dealing with this in the short term. Unfortunately I lack both the strategic skill and knowledge to plan for the long term, but hopefully this should suffice for now.

 
Most people are desperate to be enslaved. They don't want to think for themselves, they are willing to give their blood for the basic necessities. Let em, or don't, doesn't matter to me. I will be just fine in a healthy society and I will thrive in a suffering society. Most of the men on this board will do the same.
 

honibrk

Chicken
The moment you give every person $1000 of monthly UBI, guess what happens with rents. They go up in aggregate by that amount. Landlords will say to themselves: "You stupid citizens now have extra disposable thousand bucks, why won't you give it to me?"

The same would happen with any monopoly business. They would hike their prices to capture any UBI money given to people. There is by definition no comletitor, which would prevent this by undercutting their prices. So monopolies and landlords would just compete for the UBI until the recipients have exactly zero utility of it.

Well that's what's happening today as well, but to a lesser degree. Eg. any rent subsidy basically goes back to landlord directly who just raises the rent, because why not.

You, tax paying citizen, end up subsidizing landlords and price monopolies with the help of government which just hands over your hard earned and taxed money straight to them.

UBI as proposed by this desperate generation of politicians, activists and MMT economists, financed by VAT, would surely end up deepening the current bad situation only further.

That's not to say that the idea of UBI is inherently bad. It's a great tool to solve the problem of working conditions. Ie. your employer will tell you that you work there voluntarily and if you don't like it, you can go elsewhere. Except when there is nowhere else to go when all jobs moved to Asia. So you get treated as shit. Implement UBI and your next best chance is not to work, so the employers would have to make the working conditions reasonable. Also most welfare and associated bureaucracy would be deemed obsolete.

There was a generation of economists 100 years back who were pushing this idea back then. Only the idea was called Citizen's Dividend. Similar to what Alaska or Saudi Arabia do with all the excess cash from oil proceeds. You hand it back to people. They proposed to finance it by taxing use of natural resources. Ie. mineral rights, electromagnetic spectrum rights, land use rights, monopoly taxes and so on. Not only you raise enough to have excesses to be distributed back to people, but you also remove the original reasons causing wealth divide - basically monopolies sucking excess incomes out of the economy.

Too bad it didn't catch on in western world. Places like Singapore were build up on these principles to apparently huge success.
 

Slide-Rule

Sparrow
For every One Person who is stuck working 40+ hours in a dead-end job who would take that extra 1,000 dollars per month, and say, "My money worries are gone! I can now go to school and enroll in the local community college! I'm looking forward to hours of homework of Derivatives and Integrals to solve! Or I can also learn computer programming finally! I'm going to practice coding Python and C++ into the morning hours! Or I can now study Physics!! Let's memorize the Kinematics Equations! Or Chemistry! Stoichiometry problems, here I come! I can spend hours in the lab getting the experiments perfect!! Let's look into internships and get a head start on those too! This is a fantastic opportunity, I can't waste it! I'm going to hit the gym too! Maybe pick up an extra foreign language along the way!"

There are STADIUMS FILLED WITH PEOPLE who will quit their jobs, get fat on junk food, waste their lives in front of daytime TV, while high, and most likely eventually overdose. I've seen what happens to people who are freed from the consequences of their actions.

That being said...

I do think that the minimum wage should be raised. It hasn't kept up with inflation. That has wrecked the poor of America. People don't realize how badly they've been screwed, if the did, BLM and antifa riots would look like nothing compared to the revolution that would occur.

You also can't have a 15/hour minimum wage and an ENDLESS supply of third-world workers working under-the-table flooding in.
 

honibrk

Chicken
For every One Person who is stuck working 40+ hours in a dead-end job who would take that extra 1,000 dollars per month, and say, "My money worries are gone! I can now go to school and enroll in the local community college! I'm looking forward to hours of homework of Derivatives and Integrals to solve! Or I can also learn computer programming finally! I'm going to practice coding Python and C++ into the morning hours! Or I can now study Physics!! Let's memorize the Kinematics Equations! Or Chemistry! Stoichiometry problems, here I come! I can spend hours in the lab getting the experiments perfect!! Let's look into internships and get a head start on those too! This is a fantastic opportunity, I can't waste it! I'm going to hit the gym too! Maybe pick up an extra foreign language along the way!"

There are STADIUMS FILLED WITH PEOPLE who will quit their jobs, get fat on junk food, waste their lives in front of daytime TV, while high, and most likely eventually overdose. I've seen what happens to people who are freed from the consequences of their actions.

That being said...

I do think that the minimum wage should be raised. It hasn't kept up with inflation. That has wrecked the poor of America. People don't realize how badly they've been screwed, if the did, BLM and antifa riots would look like nothing compared to the revolution that would occur.

You also can't have a 15/hour minimum wage and an ENDLESS supply of third-world workers working under-the-table flooding in.
Raising the minimum wage is a perfect way to bring in inflation of consumer goods or do the exact opposite of your intended results.

You raise it and employers will either cut off thousands of low paying jobs, eg. in farms so food prices would increase, or they would hire even more illegal labor. Minimum wage is actually one of the main reasons why there are illegals flocking into the US.

Ideally you'd like to build a society without a need for minimum wage as it is just a bandaid for something bad going on.

You want to kill that which eats into paychecks of people any time tjey get a raise, or if they either got a UBI if it was implemented. You want to kill real estate rents, since it is a monopoly that just waits for your pay to go up to eat it all away that moment. No matter what you do, if you are in the bottom half, you can't save a dime.

You implement so called LVT tax, which would curb the continuous rent hikes, pop the real estate bubble going on, and the excesses collected from it could be distributed equally to people as a citizen's dividend. Or reinvested into infrastructure build.

UBI proponents are leftists who only want to print money and hand it out (and indirectly to enrich themselves, because the extra money would end up eventually in their pockets). The right wing version of this is LVT and citizen's dividend where you actually focus on how to get the money for.it in the first place and then after solving the underlying issue you realize you don't actually need to distribute any extra money to people, but you could, as dividend, if you wanted.

It won't happen because the society is too invested into the real estate bubble. The society's prosperity is proportional to house and rent price increases. It is a zero sum-game, so the bottom half will ALWAYS complain until they get their revolution.
 
Your premise is wrong here.

Sure billions like Bill Gates and Elon Musk like it, but that's because one, they hope to remove minimum wage, improving their profits (it's not about profits for they have all the money in the world, it is about control: if people lean on you for their means of income they will do everything you say), two, they know AI will kick millions out of the workforce, and if two many people die, it will hurt the economy and their businesses (well the plan is to destroy the existing economy as we see with the great reset and especially the smaller businesses, once again if you hook these people on UBI you control them like a puppet)

Sadly the intentions of our material overlords are a bit more sinister than a sane person would grasp in first instance :)
 
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