Was St. Augustine responsible for changing wording of the Lord's prayer

[easterbunny2020]

from `forgive us our debts' to `forgive us our trespasses'? I know the words were changed but never heard that is was St. Augustine who did it.

This is from a transcript of an interview with economist Michael Hudson:
"It was St. Augustine that changed all of this. He said, forget the idea of monetary debt. The church in the fourth century had been banning usury, banning the charging of interest. And St. Augustine said, “Wait a minute. Now that Constantine has made Christianity the state religion, we’ve got to support the state.” And he ended up fighting against the original Christians who wanted to protect the poor from the rich, who were forcing them all into debt — especially in North Africa, which was the first part of the Roman Empire to really go feudal, huge land of Fundy law states with serfs called coloni who were tied to the land, just like serfs in the Middle Ages. And so Augustine said, “If we’re going to be a universal church, then universal means you can’t have any disagreement."

Which can be found here:

On Debt Parasites | Michael Hudson

Debt Parasites We're told that debt forgiveness is impossible, because all debts must be paid, and to do the opposite is to invite anarchy and chaos. But what if none of it was true? Renowned economist Michael Hudson tells Branko Marcetic on New Zealand's 1/200 podcast about the debt jubilees of...

michael-hudson.com

 

[DanielH]

It's a false claim that the Hebrews got the idea for debt cancellation from the Babylonians through the exile. Moses wrote about it long before they were exiled. I don't trust anyone enough who gets something so fundamentally wrong to continue reading past that. Beyond that, from skimming the article I don't actually see any quotes that St. Augustine actually said. He says St. Augustine said things and even uses quotes, putting words into his mouth, but I see no citations.

Good example of why you should never read anything religious from a secular source.

 

[Lawrence87]

In so far as it can be trusted the wiki page on the Lord's Prayer states that Origen used "trespasses" which would predate Augustine if true and would render the theory false.

 

[Cavalier]

Is it really just a matter of translation? I have seen it written both ways. The Jordanville prayer books says forgive us our debts for instance. I prefer trespasses so that is what I say. Also I really don’t think debt as used in the prayer has anything at all to do with monetary debt.

 

[MichaelWitcoff]

Now that Constantine has made Christianity the state religion

This is a basic error that immediately lets you know the person talking doesn’t know what they’re talking about, so I’m confident saying his other claims can be safely dismissed.

St. Constantine made Christianity legal to practice. It wasn’t until almost 70 years later, under St. Theodosius, that it became the official religion of the Empire.

 

[Thomas More]

I was raised in a protestant church to say debts. I was always surprised when I visited other churches as a kid and heard trespasses.

The King James Version has debts in Matthew 6:9-13.

 

[Penitent]

In my parish we say "forgive us our debts." In the parish across town they say "trespasses." Either way, the meaning behind the word implies wrongdoing.

 

[infowarrior1]

Gods word cannot be broken. Divine Providence protects.

 

[Suburban Yahoo]

The word in Matthew 6 is debts, the word in Luke 11 is sins. Both are true.

 

[nagareboshi]

I vote in favor of using “debts” as the translation

For those who use “trespass”, why can’t the prayer be translated as “forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us”?

 

[Poche]

from `forgive us our debts' to `forgive us our trespasses'? I know the words were changed but never heard that is was St. Augustine who did it.

This is from a transcript of an interview with economist Michael Hudson:
"It was St. Augustine that changed all of this. He said, forget the idea of monetary debt. The church in the fourth century had been banning usury, banning the charging of interest. And St. Augustine said, “Wait a minute. Now that Constantine has made Christianity the state religion, we’ve got to support the state.” And he ended up fighting against the original Christians who wanted to protect the poor from the rich, who were forcing them all into debt — especially in North Africa, which was the first part of the Roman Empire to really go feudal, huge land of Fundy law states with serfs called coloni who were tied to the land, just like serfs in the Middle Ages. And so Augustine said, “If we’re going to be a universal church, then universal means you can’t have any disagreement."

Which can be found here:

On Debt Parasites | Michael Hudson

Debt Parasites We're told that debt forgiveness is impossible, because all debts must be paid, and to do the opposite is to invite anarchy and chaos. But what if none of it was true? Renowned economist Michael Hudson tells Branko Marcetic on New Zealand's 1/200 podcast about the debt jubilees of...

michael-hudson.com

In French, Spanish, and Italian the word is offenses instead of debt.

 

[ProMultis1618]

I was born and raised Protestant and grew up with “forgive us our trespasses”. Apparently it has its roots in Tyndale’s 1526 version of the Bible. Tyndale’s version of the Lord’s Prayer was adopted by Cranmer for the Anglican Book of Common Prayer (1549) making it the “official” version. Because of its use in the Book of Common Prayer “trespasses” became the familiar form of the Lord’s Prayer across traditions in the English-speaking world. It became so pervasive that English Catholics also adopted it in the 16th century and still use it, even though in Latin the “Pater Noster” uses debita/debitoribus. The Douay-Rheims version uses “debts/debtors”, like the KJV, and also translates as “give us this day our supersubstantial bread” instead of “our daily bread”.

 

[Turretin]

Matthew 6:12 Greek Text Analysis

Strong's Greek: 3783. ὀφείλημα (opheiléma) -- that which is owed, a debt

Strong's Greek: 3781. ὀφειλέτης (opheiletés) -- a debtor

I think, debt is the better term. Luther translated it into German with Schuld (debt) and Schuldigern (debtors).

 

[Good_Shepherd]

Its a trespass debt anyway not a financial debt that we owe God

 

[Bruno_Williamson]

" And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us...." Luke 11:4
" And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." Matt 6:12
" For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matt 6:14-15

I think the wording here is careful to avoid the implication that we invoke a power to forgive "sins" on God's behalf. They did "trespass" but we can only let go of our personal grudges, bitterness, and desire for revenge - "debt" - but those who we forgive must still go to God for the true forgiveness of their sins.