Liturgics Western Rite Orthodoxy

Basilus of Moro

Sparrow
Orthodox
Possible inquirer here. I come from a Catholic background and currently attend a TLM (traditional Latin mass) near my home. It is a great, vibrant community with a beautiful liturgy. I don’t necessarily wish to leave it, but the fact is it is in “communion” with Rome and likely to be cancelled. It is subject to a pozzed out diocese and it currently rents the beautiful church from a pozzed out parish with hand sanitizer and Covid signs all over the place. The community feels like it is separate from the Novus Ordo RCC world, but it is not in reality.

That said, I do feel a sense of “Western/Latin roots”. I also have some Polish Blood yet I do not know if a Polish Orthodox Church exists in the US. I did see that there is a Western Rite Orthodox Church (part of ROCOR) near my home. From the website, I gather that it is a very small community. Then there is a Greek Orthodox (GOARCH) church right down the road from me, yet It seems that many have been saying that that part of the Orthodox Church is also becoming very pozzed.

Looking for some advice as pertains to inquiries in general but also to the Western Rite if anyone has any good info. Thanks.

My general advice is to seek out a monastery, perhaps one of the Greek ones founded by Elder Ephraim, and seek some advice therein. There you will find a solid rock of faith, and the means to overcome your passions.
 

Grow Bag

Pelican
Catholic
I wanted to expand my Christian horizon a bit and found a Western Rite Mass that I attended this morning for the first time. It was held in a beautiful chapel in Galloway, Scotland, so I got up early to make the longish, chilly journey north. I arrived just in time and went in to find I was one of two people in the congregation. Nevertheless it was a fascinating experience. I had not studied the Western Rite prior to attending, so it was all new, but I'd say it had aspects of a Roman Catholic Latin Mass with certain familiar passages from the Eastern Orthodox liturgy. I will have to let the experience percolate for a while before I can really say much more really.

What was nice was that I was invited by the clergy to join them for lunch. So we went off to a bistro and sat down mask-less, while the customers and staff were muzzled. Nobody said a word, even though this was mask cucked Scotland.
 

Father Michael

Chicken
Orthodox
Priest
In order to grasp the etiology of the Western Rite, I think one can use a sense of monastic, liturgical practice on the European peninisula both before and after the establishment of Frankish kingdom.

For example, we already have a sense of normal, Palestinian and Constantinopolitan liturgical practice throught the Roman (i.e. Greek) Empire. That's fine.

We also have a sense of monastic organization that is rooted in Eastern and Mediterranean tradition that continues to this day.

Now, as a reform movement of Frankish, Benedictine, urban, university-style, state-institutional monasticism under the Franks, the first Cistercians attempted to harken back to the pre-Frankish, non-urban, simply normal monastic traditions which, in my opinion, would have been Eastern in orientation (as mediated into European territory through such holy fathers as our Saints Cassian and Benedict, for example.)

At the same time, I would say that urban centres in Europe established their own more complicated, metropolitan styles (in much the same way that, similarly, Constantinopolitan practice at times diverged and adapted from Palestinian practice.)

For example, the Carthusian rite is apparently inherited and preserved from that of the city of Laon. Without knowing much about them, I would consider Sarum- style rituals to be in this kind of 'urban' category?

I don't want to talk about so-called "Celtic" Orthodoxy here!

Now my point is that just as the history of Cistercian monasticism is a pretty humorous one of continued attempts at simplification and reform of the application of their own Benedictine Rule and practice, so also was unending the attempted simplification and reductive reform of metropolitan and university-style liturgical practice of the urban centres of Europe.

I count the Council of Trent as just another, very late attempt to streamline state-liturgical practice that was begun by Charlemagne himself at the outset of his European project.

So the question I would ask of both Western and Eastern Rite ritualists is: Who gave you your Rite? How was it formed? How was it handed on to you?

I would say that for Eastern Rite ritualists, the answers are clear. But it seems to me that for Western Rite ritualists, these questions have not yet been openly aired in a clear enough way to garner the common consent and understanding of all the laity of the Church, whatever their liturgical practice may be.
 

Yeagerist

Robin
Orthodox Catechumen
Over the weekend I have a friend reveal to me that he's slowly and steadily being pulled towards Rome. He's been attending a WR parish in the US. The guy literally chose Papism over Orthodoxy (and opened himself to all the possible coping of trads) because Latin sounded too good to him, when it defeated the purpose of the Western Rite to reclaim Latin liturgy from the errors of the Vatican.

The news really depressed me, on top of all the stress I'm getting in the ongoing elections in my country. He's not the first Orthodox friend I have (online) that had been gravitating towards Catholicism. The problem is that these people just look at the external aesthetics and "tradition" (whatever they define it to be) without looking at the deeper differences between EO and RC, such as natural theology vs apophatic theology, ADS vs EED--because Rome's errors are the root of all the ideological madness that had sprung forth in the West.

This is why I'm wary about Western Rite Orthodoxy now, because it can lead Orthodox people astray.
 
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