He's right that there's a breakdown across the board in terms of traditional values but ultimately it is women who are taking the lead and men who are following. And for all his talk of playing cupid, nothing is said of the guys' leagues. Most girls' true value-match past 25 is a balding skinny-fat manlet, yet modern dating culture renders these men invisible.
Western women have no values. The solution: Propose to them (?)
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Gavin's just old, and out of touch.
How out of touch is Gavin? He once tried to set up his 23-year old producer with Mercedes Carera, a porn star almost twice the boy's age. When the producer turned down the opportunity to date the star of "MILF Gangbangs 7", Gavin got mad and wrote a long post at Takimag about how men don't just want to date women, and blamed it on porn.
I hate to bring back the old manosphere trope of "shaming language" but it really does apply here. I guess even Gavin doesn't think he can sell you on the benefits of marriage, so instead you get a lecture about how you need to man up and marry the sluts. There wasn't a single word about why a man would want to get married, just a lot of hot air.
One of the things that worries me most about the way things are going is that the manosphere is filled with people who want to get married, but there only a small group of people who've actually done it successfully. I can only think of three happily married bloggers in the 'sphere, Mike Cernovich, Vox Day, and Dalrock. The first two are rich and good looking, and the latter is a devout Christian. They're good guys, but their lives are so different from the rest of us that there's not a lot of lessons we can take from them.
I see lots of people who think they know what it takes to find a wife and have a successful marriage. They say things like, "If you want to get married, you have to go to a small town and look for a girl there," or, like Charles Martel above, "You need to game your wife endlessly, 24-7."
But I've never seen anyone in the manosphere who went to a small town and found a good girl there, or who was able to keep their wife happy by gaming them constantly. Just a lot of talk from people who've never actually done it. We're all virgin teenage boys, swapping sex tips we read in our older sister's copy of Cosmo.
Maybe it's impossible for an average guy to find a wife and have a happy marriage. I want to get married myself, someday, but that's the conclusion I'm starting to come to.
Did anybody reading this thread follow Gavin's advice and wife up your girlfriend, and then it worked out for them? Is there anybody here who can say, "I got married, I'm glad I did, and I recommend it to you too"? This forum's got thousands of members, and they're not all PUAs. There's gotta be somebody, right? Right?
How out of touch is Gavin? He once tried to set up his 23-year old producer with Mercedes Carera, a porn star almost twice the boy's age. When the producer turned down the opportunity to date the star of "MILF Gangbangs 7", Gavin got mad and wrote a long post at Takimag about how men don't just want to date women, and blamed it on porn.
I hate to bring back the old manosphere trope of "shaming language" but it really does apply here. I guess even Gavin doesn't think he can sell you on the benefits of marriage, so instead you get a lecture about how you need to man up and marry the sluts. There wasn't a single word about why a man would want to get married, just a lot of hot air.
One of the things that worries me most about the way things are going is that the manosphere is filled with people who want to get married, but there only a small group of people who've actually done it successfully. I can only think of three happily married bloggers in the 'sphere, Mike Cernovich, Vox Day, and Dalrock. The first two are rich and good looking, and the latter is a devout Christian. They're good guys, but their lives are so different from the rest of us that there's not a lot of lessons we can take from them.
I see lots of people who think they know what it takes to find a wife and have a successful marriage. They say things like, "If you want to get married, you have to go to a small town and look for a girl there," or, like Charles Martel above, "You need to game your wife endlessly, 24-7."
But I've never seen anyone in the manosphere who went to a small town and found a good girl there, or who was able to keep their wife happy by gaming them constantly. Just a lot of talk from people who've never actually done it. We're all virgin teenage boys, swapping sex tips we read in our older sister's copy of Cosmo.
Maybe it's impossible for an average guy to find a wife and have a happy marriage. I want to get married myself, someday, but that's the conclusion I'm starting to come to.
Did anybody reading this thread follow Gavin's advice and wife up your girlfriend, and then it worked out for them? Is there anybody here who can say, "I got married, I'm glad I did, and I recommend it to you too"? This forum's got thousands of members, and they're not all PUAs. There's gotta be somebody, right? Right?
Anabasis to Desta said:
And that is the dilemma we live in, A man wants love , trust, purity and honesty from a woman and i expect the same applies for women, but in this present age these values are getting harder to find and almost impossible to keep in a long term relationship.
In the 60s it was snail mail or a landline that was used to communicate, people got married, lived on a farm, had 2.5 kids, a dog and mortgage. The family unit was rock solid because they were a group that relied solely on each other and friends/relatives to get through. Each week you might attend the local town/ church get together ..but that was really the limit of your interactions outside the family unit besides work.
With the introduction of mobile phones, viber, facebook, tinder, instant messaging,whatsapp, over the last 30 years, interaction with others or finding new friends is instantaneous. It's too easy to communicate and look for something new, hell you just need to click on someone you like on facebook and send them a message, or go to an online dating site and arrange a date and 2 hours later you're in a hotel with your new partner.
That's the problem, whenever a relationship runs into problems ( all do) ..then it's just too simple to find a quick alternative. That's why IMHO, the concept of marriage in the present age is antiquated and flawed. It's like playing financial russian roulette with 5 bullets , you going to lose money whatever happens, " why get married, just give a house to someone you don't particularly like"...
Interesting times we live in, more people seem to live alone because trust in others is difficult to obtain. Many guys i know have moved to countries like the Philippines, Thailand to live, it's like moving back in time 50 years ...and i guess that's exactly what they are looking for .. :idea:
Easy_C
Peacock
Yes. I've done exactly what you say is possible and detailed how I did it in a fairly long post.
Here's the thing: if you keep doing exactly what you've done then you're going to keep getting the same results. Finding a good wife will require you to look at girls and in places you aren't used to.
Hint: its not the clubs nor the people who hang out in them( some line dancing chicks excluded).
Here's the thing: if you keep doing exactly what you've done then you're going to keep getting the same results. Finding a good wife will require you to look at girls and in places you aren't used to.
Hint: its not the clubs nor the people who hang out in them( some line dancing chicks excluded).
I remember MikeCF tweeted a few days ago about a conservative book that seemed to propose the same thing that Gavin seems to be proposing - the "if young men acted like it was 1965, it would be like 1965" argument.
In response to the premise of the book, MikeCF said (and I agree) that that's the GOP's version of feminism. His response to that is something I also agree with:
"Become a GREAT man and DEMAND women in your life be great. The "man up" stuff from the GOP says be great and then accept any bullshit. Nah!"
https://mobile.twitter.com/Cernovich/status/669271100757401600
Edit: In fact, I would further argue that the GOP's "be a great man ... and then accept any bullshit" is in fact a major CAUSE of how the US ended up in the mess it's in now.
In response to the premise of the book, MikeCF said (and I agree) that that's the GOP's version of feminism. His response to that is something I also agree with:
"Become a GREAT man and DEMAND women in your life be great. The "man up" stuff from the GOP says be great and then accept any bullshit. Nah!"
https://mobile.twitter.com/Cernovich/status/669271100757401600
Edit: In fact, I would further argue that the GOP's "be a great man ... and then accept any bullshit" is in fact a major CAUSE of how the US ended up in the mess it's in now.
RioNomad said:
Excellent points. A woman who can't accomplish a majority of those points is fundamentally broken and not worthy of marriage. There comes a certain age when women are pining for marriage that they realize they're broken too. That's why they react with extreme shaming language when they see you dating a much younger, or foreign woman. They know they can't compete.
It used to bother me, but I've accepted it now. To give these gals credit, women are much more adaptable and their environment places zero pressure on them to improve themselves. Part of it is the massive thirst of many guys, and part of it is cultural entitlement complex for women.
What I don't understand though is when they get to the age where they're looking for commitment, they double down on the behavior that makes them damaged and get angry about advice that would actually help them. If I were a woman, I'd be beating a path to culinary lessons or even recipe websites. Instead, they get an extra cat and write on feminist websites how horrible men are.
I know some guys will say I'm looking in the wrong places, but this also applies to the "good girls" to some extent. Because the expectations are so low for women in the west, the vast majority has zero incentive to improve themselves, because they've never had to. I was seeing a 26 year old with 3 previous partners and a good relationship with her family. She was cool to be around, but still overweight, couldn't cook, and kept a messy apartment. I put her in the FB category, and asked her what the deal was. She said she doesn't like gender roles and thinks things should be equal. The next time we went out, I ordered a huge meal and made her pick up the check. I wish you could have seen her face. She looked like I just punched her grandma. I have never met a woman who could actually live up to their words. Anytime these women say they want equality, it's just another way of them saying they're too lazy and entitled to become wife material. Whenever I hear this shit, I make it a point to ask for separate checks right off the bat.
The west is toxic for women. I'm convinced the only real solution is emigrating to where it hasn't fully reached yet.
Suits said:
I like a lot of what Gavin does, so I'll cut him some slack here. I'll admit my first thought was, "what's with the forensic dissection of a years-old song that nobody hears anymore?" Some valid points but poorly thought out or executed. The final redeeming feature of Gavin's post is the quality of comments it has spurred on RVF.
A. Regarding 1:01ish. Never believe the reason a woman gives for a breakup...they ALWAYS lie to make themselves an innocent victim.
The vast majority of relationships end because the sex dries up and women don't bring anything else of value to the relationship. It's the old saying, if guys only want sex from you, it's probably because you have nothing else to offer. As I've mentioned before, I sometimes attack feminists on Y!A - the biggest anti-marriage trend in modern women is summed in a common phrase, "Women (wives) don't owe men (husbands) anything." A wife doesn't owe you anything in marriage - in spite of the fact that she took vows specifically to owe you things.
Which leads to B.
What used to be vows for life has, to feminists, become a suggestion. "I vow to do whatever I what based on my emotions of the day and if that includes you, great. If not, I'll take your money and children from you and the courts will force you to support me." If a wife doesn't feel any responsibility to me, it means I can't depend on her...which makes marriage irrelevant.
Nothing about people has changed - men want sex, women want support. The difference is that, legally, women can renege on their vows with no repercussions, while men are legally bound forever.
Women have found a way to get access to a man's resources with no responsibility to that man. The feminist dream has become a reality.
The vast majority of relationships end because the sex dries up and women don't bring anything else of value to the relationship. It's the old saying, if guys only want sex from you, it's probably because you have nothing else to offer. As I've mentioned before, I sometimes attack feminists on Y!A - the biggest anti-marriage trend in modern women is summed in a common phrase, "Women (wives) don't owe men (husbands) anything." A wife doesn't owe you anything in marriage - in spite of the fact that she took vows specifically to owe you things.
Which leads to B.
What used to be vows for life has, to feminists, become a suggestion. "I vow to do whatever I what based on my emotions of the day and if that includes you, great. If not, I'll take your money and children from you and the courts will force you to support me." If a wife doesn't feel any responsibility to me, it means I can't depend on her...which makes marriage irrelevant.
Nothing about people has changed - men want sex, women want support. The difference is that, legally, women can renege on their vows with no repercussions, while men are legally bound forever.
Women have found a way to get access to a man's resources with no responsibility to that man. The feminist dream has become a reality.
R_Niko
Kingfisher
SamuelBRoberts said:
I believe she's 31-32, but your point is still a valid one.
SamuelBRoberts said:
Bang on. This sentiment seems pervasive in our culture, with everyone telling young men to "man up" and take responsibility while refusing to even consider there might be something wrong with the women.
SamuelBRoberts said:
This. Poignant.
Constitution45
Pelican
I think marriage and relations between men and women have always been difficult. But generally it served as a rite of passage and a trial that was to be overcame. Once a man becomes more confident and understands how a woman's nature is different to his, then he can begin to focus on his purpose in life and less on simply obtaining comfort.
However what we have in the Anglosphere today, is a different animal completely.
However what we have in the Anglosphere today, is a different animal completely.
He very obviously has zero conception of what 90% of guys go through. Sexual 'liberation' plays out along highly asymmetrical lines, so all that "free milk" is increasingly available to only the top level of men. And this is common to almost all arenas of social interaction: college, nightclubs, dating apps, etc. Anyone with a basic grasp of neomasculine knowledge will know the reasons (hypergamy, SMV, alpha widowhood and so on), and men who've worked hard to bring their social presence from utter invisibility to being able to approach, meet and have satisfying relationships with women on a decently consistent basis will know the glaring inequities first-hand.
So no, most men aren't spoiled rotten with infinite sex...they're standing alone in a dark, stark nightclub, wondering why they wasted yet another night and paycheck chunk on something that brings them nothing in return. They're walking around a college campus wishing they were someone else. They're fruitlessly swiping right again, again, again and again in some fetid dating videogame that makes tetris seem profoundly human in comparison.
Nothing against Gavin, at times he's an indispensable voice, but I think he's the one who's been spoiled. Paucity of experience and reflection is the only way a perceptive person could come to such a mistaken conclusion.
Charles Martel said:
u wot m8?
Charles Martel said:
Credit for one of the most brutally annoying sentences I've ever head the displeasure of reading.
Saga said:
No man. Why the endless exaggeration?
Most dudes are neither "spoiled rotten with endless sex" NOR "standing alone in a dark, stark nightclub" (LOL). Most dudes on a college campus will hook up with some girl every once in a while and/or have a couple of girlfriends while they're there. The hookups are not necessarily frequent and the girls are not necessarily beauties, but that's just how it is. It's true that there may be a lacrosse star who's fucked every athletics slut on campus, and there will be some severe geeks and aspies who never get any (although given that coeds are now the majority on most campuses even the latter can usually find a girlfriend with some effort). But neither of these extremes is at all representative of the typical guy's experience.
It's easy to get carried away with mere ideas that look good on the screen. But it's better and more useful for poster and reader alike to hew somewhat closely to reality, which is in most cases more mundane and less exciting than the fantastical pronouncements on either side.
Marriage minded women don't need to be gamed endlessly because they make an effort to resist temptation.
I know its like speaking a foreign language to you guys but when women lived in a day and age where they considered it a mark of status to have a husband, children, and be active in the church and community, and often lived on farms and lived harsh lives, they just didn't bother fucking around as much. I almost consider it an aspect of how safe and easy society has gotten where being abandoned by the father and head of house is not a big deal. We live in an age of decadence where marriage is not really needed as an institution, as shitty as that is for almost everybody.
Kudos to lizard of oz for voicing my sentiments exactly, Charles Martel's comment is pretty irritating.
I know its like speaking a foreign language to you guys but when women lived in a day and age where they considered it a mark of status to have a husband, children, and be active in the church and community, and often lived on farms and lived harsh lives, they just didn't bother fucking around as much. I almost consider it an aspect of how safe and easy society has gotten where being abandoned by the father and head of house is not a big deal. We live in an age of decadence where marriage is not really needed as an institution, as shitty as that is for almost everybody.
Kudos to lizard of oz for voicing my sentiments exactly, Charles Martel's comment is pretty irritating.
I'll defend Gavin a bit here just to play devil's advocate. Disclaimer: I'm a pretty big fan of his material.
I know in this particular vid he's shitting on males pretty hard but he has called out females in the past for not doing their part - just look at any of the Gavin vs feminism videos around on youtube. Below is one that has been posted on the forum before:
And if you look at the video posted in the OP from 6:00 and on he does have a little "heart to heart" with the ladies - he did cut down on the swearing and general mockery but he still was pretty straight forward with his points - mainly that girls have to stop giving the milk away for free if they're going to be complaining about "where all the good guys have gone?" He also tells girls straight up that there's a time limit for them to settle down as opposed to all the articles talking about how 40 is the new 20 and to not listen to the feminists that are telling women to slutwalk and yolo it up. This is way different the usual MSM platform that tells women that they can have everything while contributing nothing in return. Rater there's an acknowledgement that it takes two to tango. Yeah he had to mix it up with some "You are valuable" and go girl-isms but hey remember he's address women here and they aren't as accepting of cold hard truth without plenty of honey to coat it.
I know in this particular vid he's shitting on males pretty hard but he has called out females in the past for not doing their part - just look at any of the Gavin vs feminism videos around on youtube. Below is one that has been posted on the forum before:
And if you look at the video posted in the OP from 6:00 and on he does have a little "heart to heart" with the ladies - he did cut down on the swearing and general mockery but he still was pretty straight forward with his points - mainly that girls have to stop giving the milk away for free if they're going to be complaining about "where all the good guys have gone?" He also tells girls straight up that there's a time limit for them to settle down as opposed to all the articles talking about how 40 is the new 20 and to not listen to the feminists that are telling women to slutwalk and yolo it up. This is way different the usual MSM platform that tells women that they can have everything while contributing nothing in return. Rater there's an acknowledgement that it takes two to tango. Yeah he had to mix it up with some "You are valuable" and go girl-isms but hey remember he's address women here and they aren't as accepting of cold hard truth without plenty of honey to coat it.
The Lizard of Oz said:
Perhaps my personal experience is slanted but I don't think the picture I painted is as extreme as you make it seem. Getting a hookup every once in awhile in a highly sexualized environment carries a lot of static noise in between...the disparity between expectation (largely peddled by the media) and reality makes for a rough time for young men who haven't refined their game. You're right, the average and everyday can't get overlooked, but getting a decent relationship with a nice looking girl isn't what a lot of men would call mundane, and that's my real point: many would be joyful to get what others might call mundane.
So your point is taken, I'll not disagree with you that a middle ground exists...I simply think it's being eroded by various factors, and those on the wrong side of it are the most likely to be glossed over.
As a last thought, I often suspect that there's a degree of selective storytelling at work. No one really tells their friends about the 12 nights out that yielded nothing, of course they prefer to talk about the 1 time they pulled. Realism means giving fair consideration to the 12.
Saga said:
Like the gambler who constantly talks about his $50k night but never mentions the losses or that he's still $100k in the hole.
Charles Martel said:
I will not game my wife 24/7. A woman worthy of being a wife understands self-sacrificial love and that regular sex is one of her vows. What's the point of getting married to a woman who will only keep her vows when she's being gamed?
R_Niko
Kingfisher
Captainstabbin said:
Agreed 100%. If I had to explain my choice to remain single as succinctly as possible, it would sound like this. I've gotten several women by running a bit of game, but if that's what it takes to get her to stick around, what's the point, besides a steady stream of sex that seems less and less important as time passes.
Captainstabbin said:
I think a lot of men want to believe that Marriage 1.0 is still possible as long as you are Red Pill enough / game her enough (24/7) / hold frame at all times / etc.
This is the flip side of female hypoagency (the idea that women are not responsible for anything): male hyperagency - the idea that men are responsible for everything.
I think men want to believe this because then they can convince themselves that with enough effort they can *always* control the outcome (rather than just influence it) with women and get the security they desire.
To me it's ironically a very liberal view in the sense that it implies that people only behave badly because of external circumstances. IE, a woman only cheats if you weren't red pill enough sounds like the same reasoning liberals use when they ague that people only commit crimes because society drove them to it.
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