What Christians Outside Of The Orthodox Church Believe

Father Michael

Chicken
Orthodox
Priest
It is useful when an academic scholar like Fr Andrew Stephen Damick makes taxonomical lists of heresies, or gives alternative definitions of ancient greek words, or dredges up textual obscurities, or lays out interesting historical suppositions, etc.

... but none of this guff from the "olive groves of academia" articulates the desert theology of the patristic tradition of, say, the Phikokalia, etc.

The desert fathers clearly understand heresy and deception because themselves embody and live out theology. They communicate their understanding by leading others to experience the same.

Academic "theologians" instead try to articulate rational propositions intelligible to the ratiocinating 'mind' alone. (I mean 'mind' and not 'nous.') Their propositions are intelligible even to non-Christians.

I don't want to generate heat, but my own view is that when an Orthodox priest writes "academic" books, he steps out of Orthodox tradition, and not just "patristic" tradition.

That's fine to do so, if one at least admits and acknowledges that that's what one is doing, and takes responsibility for the consequences.

This kind of academic fluff is enjoyable, like bubble-gum, but all too often it parades and pretends to be apologetic or pastorally motivated. Nuh, it's spiritual fluff.

Worse. It brings a worldly, rationalistic comprehension to spiritual quantities/qualities that need handling with reverence and holy fear.

The Ancient Faith Media project would probably even agree with my diagnosis above. How? Because they are like the "best students of orthodoxy in the world."

AFM's scholars like Fr Andrew generally say and speak clichés that are seemingly ortho-consonant with the best of tradition, because they studied it hard, but AFM's worldly ethos drags them unwittingly into actions and positions that are not consonant with their own clichés (hence its current 'COVID' debacle).

In my opinion, the "return to the fathers" of Fr Georges Florovsky was unscathed by the later attempt to undermine it.

One senses that this kind of academic scholar (Fr Georges) is able to embody actual, desert theology as well as treat with university academics, heretics (and the doubtfully orthodox) in their own language.
 

christie2

Robin
Woman
Orthodox
The most miserable and bitter person I have ever known is one of my neighbors. It's a man in his forties, living a depressive, angry life, lonely in his room. Nobody likes him, and even dogs are avoiding him.

But the thing that defines him the most, is that he is always right. That's his biggest virtue and asset. Always ready to fight every opinion by endlessly arguing with anyone who dares to have different ideas like his.
He is unable to change his opinion on anything, and he is proud of it.

I think he is missing the point of what life is about, but to someone else, such a living could appear like a noble fight for the truth. And I'm fine with that. It's his choice, and he is bearing the consequences of it.

And no, not because I'm a truth relativist. I believe that God's Word is a clear and whole Truth. But I don't have the monopoly for explaining it.
And I doubt any man has it.

And that's why when I see some contemporary human being proclaiming himself as an exclusive owner of the truth, I'm a little bit skeptical.

Just look at how many always infallible Christians are now just pfizer preachers. Those who followed them are now triple jabbed, and some of them are now dead. But they died convinced that they did the right thing.

I'm critical of believing in any human construct totally, without doubt, and my experience is proving to me that I'm right.
Every person I know eventually disappointed me at some time. And I disappointed them, of course.
I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, but I'm careful in believing them wholeheartedly. They are just fallible humans like I'm.


I have unlimited trust only in God.
Me too. I work with several people like this and it is fascinating to experience.

I have never practiced the 'I have 2 ears and 1 mouth so I will listen twice as much as I speak' so much in my life as I have now. It's excellent training in humility and respect for others.
I am most comfortable with these types of people.

A kind of "stand for something or you'll fall for anything" kind of living.

I too have only unlimited trust in God.
He has protected me so much in recent years that I felt drawn back; I'm very grateful to God and very humbled for His love.
 

Alexander_English

 
Banned
Protestant
You place your faith in Calvin higher than God, the Bible, and His Church

This is false. I have no faith in John Calvin. I don't put my faith in human beings.

When you agree with some ideas from a person, do you have "faith" in that person or place him higher than God? No, you simply agree with some of his ideas. That's all.
 

Alexander_English

 
Banned
Protestant
However, the author cannot see any fallacies within his own Orthodox church, which someone like me, could debunk several tenets of the Orthodox church.

I don't think it's possible to "debunk" the Orthodox because their reasoning is perfectly circular. There's no way for criticism to enter. I don't mean that as an "attack" but it's a fact I observe.

It would be just as easy for someone to "debunk" my faith in God and the Bible. My reasoning is perfectly circular. No one can debunk it.
 

josemiguel

Robin
Orthodox
I have no faith in John Calvin. I don't put my faith in human beings.
Let's put that to the test.
When you agree with some ideas from a person,
Sonce yhe person is John Calvin, this means you are not a Calvinist, and would be considered by him a heretic.
I don't think it's possible to "debunk" the Orthodox because their reasoning is perfectly circular.
St Paul disagrees, he even said if the Resurection did not happen, then the Church is a house of cards.

There are a few other things that would debunk Orthodox claims, such as hell prevailing against the Church, doctrine or the Faith evolving to contradict what it was in the past, lack of Apostolicity or Catholicity, etc.
My reasoning is perfectly circular. No one can debunk it.
Besides that being a logical fallacy, your faith is in your own reason? Sounds like the last verse of Judges, everyman doing what is right in his own eyes. Your faith is ultimately in yourself, your ability to properly interpret the Faith, Scripture and Truth. That is the ultimate logical end of the humanist heresy that infected the West more than a millenium ago.
 

Alexander_English

 
Banned
Protestant
Sonce yhe person is John Calvin, this means you are not a Calvinist, and would be considered by him a heretic.

Why would it matter if John Calvin considered me a heretic? I don't care.

Sounds like the last verse of Judges, everyman doing what is right in his own eyes.

I agree that's not right. Blindly following human authority is not right either (yes, "in my own eyes"). There has to be a middle ground.
 

Alexander_English

 
Banned
Protestant
Thanks for the reminder.

I already said it would be a blessing if I were removed from the forum. I'm obviously not welcome here. Why not just pull the trigger and ban me? Save both of us more headaches.
 

Alexander_English

 
Banned
Protestant
Take a look at my post history. Compare it to typical content bashing other Christians on your Christian and Orthodox Memes threads. If you think it makes sense to ban me, then go ahead. You gave me 8 points for one post (in this thread) so you can't really give me any more points without banning me. I think I've gotten about as much as I'm going to get out of this forum. I don't have much to say to people who say they are Christians while openly bashing whole denominations of other Christians. All your carefully moderated content in your memes threads that openly bashes other Christians is a good reason why I should not be on this forum anyway. I like your news and threads on other topics but I just read those threads, don't really post in them. I don't think you can ban me from that.

I have no real desire to interact with this forum anymore beyond reading it. So, if you please, go ahead and ban me. I wouldn't mind seeing the big BANNED label across my avatar. That would remind me that I don't belong here.
 

Alexander_English

 
Banned
Protestant
It's not really that simple, but thanks for the advice. Whether I belong here or not depends on how Roosh handles this interaction. So this is a good way for me to find out if this forum is a place I should be, or not. The forum has changed a lot since I first started posting here mid-2020.

Roosh, one other thing you should think about is how your forum is supposedly against online censorship, while at the same time uses it heavily. Maybe you should give that some thought and try to be more consistent.
 

Roosh

Cardinal
Orthodox
Begging Roosh to ban you is weak, childish ("Please stop me!")

Logging out and never coming back would be manly self-control
I perceive his soul is crying out to God for help and that he is not a vindictive troll, so I don't want to ban him, because when God answers Him, He will want to participate here in a more positive manner.
 

DanielH

Ostrich
Moderator
Orthodox
Roosh, one other thing you should think about is how your forum is supposedly against online censorship, while at the same time uses it heavily. Maybe you should give that some thought and try to be more consistent.
Let's see how Saint Emperor Justinian I ruled

Religious policy[edit]​


Hagia Sophia mosaic depicting the Virgin Mary holding the Child Christ on her lap. On her right side stands Justinian, offering a model of the Hagia Sophia. On her left, Constantine I presents a model of Constantinople.
As in his secular administration, despotism appeared also in the Emperor's ecclesiastical policy. He regulated everything, both in religion and in law.


Our Lady of Saidnaya Monastery, in present-day Syria, is traditionally held to have been founded by Justinian.
At the very beginning of his reign, he deemed it proper to promulgate by law the Church's belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation, and to threaten all heretics with the appropriate penalties,[70] whereas he subsequently declared that he intended to deprive all disturbers of orthodoxy of the opportunity for such offense by due process of law.[71] He made the Nicaeno-Constantinopolitan creed the sole symbol of the Church[72] and accorded legal force to the canons of the four ecumenical councils.[73] The bishops in attendance at the Council of Constantinople (536) recognized that nothing could be done in the Church contrary to the emperor's will and command,[74] while, on his side, the emperor, in the case of the Patriarch Anthimus, reinforced the ban of the Church with temporal proscription.[75] Justinian protected the purity of the church by suppressing heretics. He neglected no opportunity to secure the rights of the Church and clergy, and to protect and extend monasticism. He granted the monks the right to inherit property from private citizens and the right to receive solemnia, or annual gifts, from the Imperial treasury or from the taxes of certain provinces and he prohibited lay confiscation of monastic estates.

Although the despotic character of his measures is contrary to modern sensibilities, he was indeed a "nursing father" of the Church. Both the Codex and the Novellae contain many enactments regarding donations, foundations, and the administration of ecclesiastical property; election and rights of bishops, priests and abbots; monastic life, residential obligations of the clergy, conduct of divine service, episcopal jurisdiction, etc. Justinian also rebuilt the Church of Hagia Sophia (which cost 20,000 pounds of gold),[76] the original site having been destroyed during the Nika riots. The new Hagia Sophia, with its numerous chapels and shrines, gilded octagonal dome, and mosaics, became the centre and most visible monument of Eastern Orthodoxy in Constantinople.

Citing the above, I am for censorship of people not in my group and against censorship for people in my group. There is no logical inconsistency and this is the only policy on speech that ever led to any sort of lasting stability.
 

fortyfive

Kingfisher
Other Christian
Thanks for the reminder.

I already said it would be a blessing if I were removed from the forum. I'm obviously not welcome here. Why not just pull the trigger and ban me? Save both of us more headaches.

Don't be discouraged by sporadic rainy days.

It's not the adversity that bothers us but our reaction to it. Fortunately, that's the thing we can control.

Erase self-pity from your life once and for all, stop counting on people's sympathy and compassion ever, and your life instantly improve.
Expect and strive for mercy only from God, but don't forget to be merciful too. And don't expect anything in return from fellow humans, or you will be disappointed.

The world is a wicked place, the judgment is underway, and we shouldn't waste time with petty quarreling.

Here is great Biblical advice, use it for your advantage::
When a man’s ways please the Lord, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. Proverbs 16:7
 

Alexander_English

 
Banned
Protestant
Citing the above, I am for censorship of people not in my group and against censorship for people in my group. There is no logical inconsistency and this is the only policy on speech that ever led to any sort of lasting stability.

That's an interesting point. I copied parts of the Wikipedia article you cited since I had to scroll a little to find what it says about Justinian's religious policies:

Justinian protected the purity of the church by suppressing heretics. He neglected no opportunity to secure the rights of the Church and clergy, and to protect and extend monasticism. He granted the monks the right to inherit property from private citizens and the right to receive solemnia, or annual gifts, from the Imperial treasury or from the taxes of certain provinces and he prohibited lay confiscation of monastic estates.


Although the despotic character of his measures is contrary to modern sensibilities, he was indeed a "nursing father" of the Church. Both the Codex and the Novellae contain many enactments regarding donations, foundations, and the administration of ecclesiastical property; election and rights of bishops, priests and abbots; monastic life, residential obligations of the clergy, conduct of divine service, episcopal jurisdiction, etc. Justinian also rebuilt the Church of Hagia Sophia (which cost 20,000 pounds of gold),[1] the original site having been destroyed during the Nika riots.


Justinian was a great Christian emperor and I'm not going to say he was wrong. But I don't think the message of Christianity has to spread by forcibly suppressing opposing views, and that's not how it spread in the early Church. That's more like how Islam spreads: they simply kill anyone who disagrees. Christianity spreads because it is true, not because it is violently enforced. I mean, if your message is true, why do you have to smash dissent? The logic and reason of your message and the example of your good life should prevail on their own. Censorship of opposing views smells of insecurity.
 

DanielH

Ostrich
Moderator
Orthodox
That's an interesting point. I copied parts of the Wikipedia article you cited since I had to scroll a little to find what it says about Justinian's religious policies:




Justinian was a great Christian emperor and I'm not going to say he was wrong. But I don't think the message of Christianity has to spread by forcibly suppressing opposing views, and that's not how it spread in the early Church. That's more like how Islam spreads: they simply kill anyone who disagrees. Christianity spreads because it is true, not because it is violently enforced. I mean, if your message is true, why do you have to smash dissent? The logic and reason of your message and the example of your good life should prevail on their own. Censorship of opposing views smells of insecurity.
It's certainly a good topic for discussion. The way I see it, if God sees fit to put you in a position of authority over a nation, or even a family or a platform like this, you have a duty to make an effort that they don't get corrupted by impure temptations and suggestions whether that be heresy or media or else.
 

Alexander_English

 
Banned
Protestant
Don't be discouraged by sporadic rainy days.

It's not the adversity that bothers us but our reaction to it. Fortunately, that's the thing we can control.

Erase self-pity from your life once and for all, stop counting on people's sympathy and compassion ever, and your life instantly improve.
Expect and strive for mercy only from God, but don't forget to be merciful too. And don't expect anything in return from fellow humans, or you will be disappointed.

The world is a wicked place, the judgment is underway, and we shouldn't waste time with petty quarreling.

Here is great Biblical advice, use it for your advantage::
When a man’s ways please the Lord, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. Proverbs 16:7

Thank you, that is good advice.

Here's a little introspection...

I'm probably coming off more whiny and self-pitying than I actually mean to. The truth is my days of using this forum to gain spiritual benefit are probably over, because judging from the content allowed on the Christian and Orthodox Memes threads, among other places, Protestants are about as welcome here as openly gay child molesters and viewed with the same level of respect. It's hard to take serious spiritual advice from anyone who creates and enjoys content that hates and despises other Christians. The Jew hatred on this forum is a red flag too, considering many of those Jews will be converted to Christ before judgment day, and being of the true vine, will be even higher in heaven than anyone here. Yes, even some of the really bad ones. Remember Saul the Jew, the chief of sinners, who was converted forcibly by God while on a self-righteous, murderous rampage against Christians? He didn't exactly come to the Lord of his own free will. He was lost and blind in his sin when God converted him, just like many of today's Jews will be. So videos like a recent video of some childlike buffoon (hopefully fake) priest harassing some poor, peaceful little Jews in their humble neighborhood shop made me want to throw up. What a way to disgrace the name of Christ. The fact that video was applauded on this forum again shows me this is not a place for me to gain spiritual benefit.

I'm not pulling a Jordan Peterson and crying about how I can't believe in Jesus (in this case the Orthodox faith) because some of its members don't always behave in a way I approve of. That would be error. I am just saying I'm not going to take spiritual advice from people who bash other Christians. So in that case my question to myself is, why am I even posting here anymore? Why not just read about the Canadian Truckers, get some real (and a little fake) COVID news, laugh at the uplifting memes bashing the left, feel inspired and optimistic that tyranny is going down and freedom is winning, and get my spiritual discussion somewhere else?

On the other hand, it's possible this group is still a decent place for me to converse about religious topics. Probably not though, because of the one-sided censorship which makes it impossible to have a real discussion.
 
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Alexander_English

 
Banned
Protestant
It's certainly a good topic for discussion. The way I see it, if God sees fit to put you in a position of authority over a nation, or even a family or a platform like this, you have a duty to make an effort that they don't get corrupted by impure temptations and suggestions whether that be heresy or media or else.

Yes. Like nearly everything, it's nowhere near as simple as it seems. Food for thought, I appreciate that.

Edit: I agree with what you're saying. So I would ask Roosh to take a look at the impure content in many places on this forum and be consistent at enforcing his own rules, about "attacking others" for example. Also clean up the trashy, profane content and low blows against other Christians who aren't even allowed to respond. Clean this place up, in a manner consistent with the principles both of your Church and our Bible. Then if Protestant dissent is removed at the same time, at least you would be consistent. Plus it would improve your forum.
 
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Alexander_English

 
Banned
Protestant
I perceive his soul is crying out to God for help and that he is not a vindictive troll, so I don't want to ban him, because when God answers Him, He will want to participate here in a more positive manner.


Thanks, Roosh, that's very compassionate of you, and I will not argue with you, my soul is definitely crying out to God for help. That won't stop until the last day. Maybe this is a place I can benefit from after all.

I posted a few things before seeing your post here. If I had scrolled up far enough initially and seen your post, I would have thanked you first, before posting. I stand by what I wrote, and I would urge you to have a more consistent and sweeping censorship effort, if you choose to continue going the Justinian route with this forum.
 
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