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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Alan Roebuck" data-source="post: 1569631" data-attributes="member: 24542">I have read your linked Orthodox article on predestination and as a Calvinist, I can agree with most of the author says. My disagreement is mostly what some things that were left out. Here are some excerpts from the article, and my responses:“Brothers and sisters, in this realm which defies comprehension, we understand only one thing: Predestination is the combination of divine grace and human will of the grace of God which calls, and the will of man which follows this calling.”I agree with that.“…each human possesses all the freedom necessary to achieve salvation with the help of the grace of God. God desires, and if man desires also, then he or she is already predestined.”I also agree with that, but add the proviso that according to Scripture, God gives us the desire to come to Christ and without this gift of grace, we would not come to Him. See e.g., Ephesians 2:1—10: We were dead in our trespasses and sins until God made us alive together with Christ.“In the question of predestination, all is incomprehensible:”I mostly agree; we cannot know the exact nature and mechanism of divine predestination. But we can know what God has told us about it.“God is just, He is Justice itself. In giving the law to all, He wills all men to be saved (I Tim. 2:4), as says the Apostle.”What God wills is less certain than what God predestines. God wills that none commit murder, but it happens. God also willed that the Son would die for the sins of the world, and it happened with certainty. God’s will in this sense does not determine all that occurs, but his predestination does make things certain.And yet we do not know who is predestined, so from man’s point of view, it is as if the will of man determines his salvation.“The Divine gift is for all! The wounds of Jesus Christ are healing for all. The blood of Jesus Christ is the miraculous ladder by which we all can ascend to paradise.”And yet not all are forgiven. Is that entirely the fault of the unbelievers, because they lack the character to believe and be saved? In that case God is too weak to save all. It is more consistent with the words of Scripture and the character of God to acknowledge that God predestines, both the end (salvation) and the means (faith in Jesus.)Also, even if God does not predestine in the Calvinistic sense, He is still responsible for sending unbelievers into eternal torment, for He could have arranged things for all to be saved.“Thus, God, because of His justice, mercy and providence for all, desires salvation for all. Inasmuch as it depends on Him, He does not desire the ruin of anything, even the most minute.”Just as God desires that none shall steal, He desires that all be saved. Very true. But He has also told us that He predestines some for salvation (e.g., Ephesians 1.) This is a mystery, and we must believe Scripture.“He hated Esau (saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau [Malachi 1:2,3] Trans.) for He foreknew his evil disposition. He is merciful to whomever He wishes, for He foreknows that the person will be good and of an obedient will.”No disagreement with that, but we must remember who gives each person his unique will and disposition: God.[Quoting a confused Christian] “God knows ahead of time if I am predestined for paradise or doomed to torment. If I am predestined for paradise, to attain it there is need for no further toil. If I am sentenced to torment, it is completely futile for me to try to escape it. Neither in the first case, nor in the second am I free.”Predestination is not fatalism. If you are of God’s elect, you will freely choose to come to Christ in faith. If you are not, you won’t. God predestines the means as well as the ends.“God always wants your salvation, for He is the Lover of mankind; and you can always be saved, for you are free. God's grace and your will form predestination. God desires (your salvation): desire (salvation) also, and you will be predestined.”Very true. “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16[Commenting on Jeremiah 18] “See how God changes His decision according to how man changes his disposition? God has decided to save the righteous and grant retribution to the sinful.”This is perfectly consistent with God predestining that He will change His decision in response to man’s acts.“Your predestination depends on the will of God and your will.”But your will, despite being free in the ordinary sense, was predestined. Our wills are free in the sense that we choose what we want to choose, but not in the sense that God does not know the outcome until we make our choice. God know the end before it happens.</blockquote>

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