What do Orthodox churches teach regarding racial diversity?

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johngbeckham

Chicken
Orthodox Inquirer
First, I hope it's okay to post this question here, and if not please remove it.

I sporadically watch various Orthodox content creators, and one theme that keeps popping up is this acceptance of the mainstream view of racial diversity being a social good and something we need to embrace as Christians. Obviously, we shouldn't hate people just for being of a different ethnicity, and I personally don't have any hate in my heart for anyone based on such criteria. Still, the idea is used as a cudgel against certain (mainly European) races and nations, especially in the sense of immigration policy, deracination policies, and redistribution of wealth along racial criteria.

So my question is: to what extent does the Orthodox church accept these various evils in the name of accepting the ideal of loving each other and being charitable?
 
Thank you for asking as I am interested in this as well. I think we've all heard Roosh's casual commentary on Black Americans, and that it is not a good idea for a nation to look like an "International Airport" in which citizens are all different races and cultures.

Many Orthobros seem to identify with the America First movement, which takes a firm anti-immigration stance and in turn which can come off as anti race mixing. Nick Fuentes, a Catholic, has casually said it's not a good idea to date/marry outside your own race.

I'd like to see an Ortho commentary on this debate between Jared Taylor and E Michael Jones that happened a couple weeks ago in particular:
 

Pantheon

Robin
Orthodox
Equality is not compatible with Christianity. We are equal before God only, but otherwise there is no such thing. We are individuals and we have souls. Leftists generally want to take avantage of Eastern spirituality by saying that 'all are One', and that separation is 'illusion'. This essentially denies the positive value of existence, and seeks to return everything to formless chaos. If God created the world, then there is value in multiplicity, and the more evolved something is, the more differentiated it becomes. Insects for example who are a lower life form do only have group 'souls', but no individuality.

Since every baptized Christian is a true individual and son of God, it is ultimately up to him or her whom to marry. If race mixing was inherently wrong, I believe God would not allow it. But as I said, the more evolved something is, the more specialized and individual it is. That includes human races, who have different niches. Generally, most normal people will marry within their race, because it's just biology. What is more dangerous is Leftist nihilism, which encourages people not to have children at all. Generally speaking, racial diversity is not good since it signifies a breakdown of normality, in which fringe elements begin to parasitize on the centre.

Where I would personally depart from white nationalists is that they make race the prime value of society. The most important factor in the soul of the human being is not race, nor ethnicity, nor intelligence, nor personality. It is one’s spiritual character or caste. It governs one’s understanding of knowledge, ethics, the good life, or friendship, among others. For example, our currect value system is dominated by the mercantile caste, who benefits from a society which looks like an "international airport" and where everyone is a potential customer.
 

johngbeckham

Chicken
Orthodox Inquirer
Thanks for the response, Pantheon.

How do the Orthodox churches interpret 1 Timothy 5:8 as regards ethno-nationalism?

"But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
The idea of a “nation” meaning a hodgepodge of wildly different groups of people, with different ethnicities and religions and cultures, is a very new thing in the grand scope of history. I don’t think you’ll find many Fathers, if any, commenting on this because it was simply not the world they lived in - at least not to anywhere near the degree that the modern West experiences it.

The only official Orthodox view I’m aware of that addresses this at all comes from the Russian Church in a document called Basis Of The Social Concept, which you can find online, in English, for free.
 

Going strong

Crow
Gold Member
Given how critical theory, and especially critical race theory is the primary vessel of delivering evil unto the world in our time, shouldn't this be something that more Orthodox speak about and against?
I've been to holy, beautifullly impressive Orthodox churches in several Eastern Europe countries, notably in Russia and Bulgaria, and have never seen an African migrant inside - during mass or at other moments, not even an African tourist.

So, the Orthodox Church is obviously not really, directly concerned by racial/migrants issues. That's probably why they don't seem especially concerned about illegal mass migrations, a remote concern for EE.

I guess the Orthodox Church is happy or say, relieved to let the crumbling Catholic Church deal with the mass migration troubles and situation.

I feel like somehow, Orthodoxs watch sadly but patiently while the soiled Catholic Church self destroys (because of gay mafia and brutish illegal migrants). Soon they'll be the only Christians left.
 

Blade Runner

Ostrich
Orthodox
From the wiki entry on "phyletism" (stress mine):

the church should not be confused with the destiny of a single nation or a single race.

This is the correct way of stating the issue at hand and the way Orthodox understand it. Nothing more, nothing less. The Church is what it is, and it is defined in Orthodoxy as the local assembly of people who in faith, under a bishop, share the doctrine and practice of their forefathers and all those around the world in communion together that are of the same faith, practice and mind (or are trying to be and repenting when in error).

I think the issue we are having here (well stated, by the way, @Pantheon ) is the problem of people being together when they do not have the commonality, trust and diplomacy that they would or should have when their are obedient to the one, true God. Jones misses this point. Taylor, even in being accurate in what he states, of course can be used (since the culture is not a godly one) as a divider to further political gains by the sick elite - in fact, this is what we see - or rather, the response against it.

I could go on, but for now I'll leave it at this.
 

Black Ortho Acolyte

Chicken
Orthodox Inquirer
First, I hope it's okay to post this question here, and if not please remove it.

I sporadically watch various Orthodox content creators, and one theme that keeps popping up is this acceptance of the mainstream view of racial diversity being a social good and something we need to embrace as Christians. Obviously, we shouldn't hate people just for being of a different ethnicity, and I personally don't have any hate in my heart for anyone based on such criteria. Still, the idea is used as a cudgel against certain (mainly European) races and nations, especially in the sense of immigration policy, deracination policies, and redistribution of wealth along racial criteria.

So my question is: to what extent does the Orthodox church accept these various evils in the name of accepting the ideal of loving each other and being charitable?
Fr John Whiteford, who's ROCOR, talks about race issues in a very relevant way that I agree with 100%. Granted I'm not concerned with approval of the America First/Groyper/Fuentes crowd or being viewed as "based". That said I've been a advocate for zero immigration for over 15 years. Not for genetic reasons. For economic, cultural and unity/cohesion reasons. There's nothing wrong with preferring X race for your wife or husband or getting along better with X culture etc. There's nothing wrong with advocating for zero immigration either IMO. However once you cross into being relieved that there's no X race at the Parish, condemning the sacrament of marriage because of "race mixing", or mocking "mixed race" children (who are Icons of Christ) etc etc you've crossed into the territory of overt racial idolatry IMO - all common behavior amongst the "dissident right". Even amongst those who call themselves Christian. BLM and CRT and the like has already been openly condemned by many Priest and rightfully so. However this isn't license to align with someone like Jared Taylor. Just my take tho.

The Sin and Heresy of Racial Separatism​

Interracial Marriage and the Orthodox Faith​

 

Aboulia

Woodpecker
Orthodox
Where I would personally depart from white nationalists is that they make race the prime value of society. The most important factor in the soul of the human being is not race, nor ethnicity, nor intelligence, nor personality. It is one’s spiritual character or caste. It governs one’s understanding of knowledge, ethics, the good life, or friendship, among others.

And you're right to do so, as "white nationalists" have it backwards. As the material (appearance is corruptable/changeable) cannot be the center of spiritual (unchangeable) identity. Homogeneity is what comes later, over time. Dr Johnson did a good podcast on Lev Gumilev (you can skip the first 8 minutes or so) about how ethnic groups begin. This sort of person is ignored in the west, because ethnic identity is suppressed in the service of empire.

As MichaelWitcoff mentioned the Bases of the Social Concept of the Russian Orthodox Church is a very good starting point. (I just wanted to link it)

How do the Orthodox churches interpret 1 Timothy 5:8 as regards ethno-nationalism?

(From Archbishop Averky's commentary on the Scriptures)

In 5:3-16 St Paul speaks of widows. "Honor widows who are really widows" (5:3) First of all, "honor" would be better translated as "help" that is, take them under the church's financial support. In other words, Timothy should sponsor all widows of virtuous character who are in need of charity and care. The meaning of 5:4 is that widows who have close relatives of means should not burden the Church, but rather their children or grandchildren must show respect to their mother or grandmother by taking care of them, feeding them, and doing good to them.

Verse 5 suggests that not only old widows, but even younger widows also can be taken into the Church's care if only they have recommended themselves by a virtuous life, rejected a second marriage, and intend to live chastely, putting their trust in God's help alone. Such pious widows are contrasted in verse 6 with those who "live in pleasure" and are consequently "dead [while they live]." These widows should be commanded to live blamelessly (5:7) "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever (5:8). This rebuke is probably directed at those who try to pass off the financial care of their elderly to the Church because they cannot be bothered to care for their own.

--------------

^That's probably not the answer you're looking for, but we can't shoehorn scripture to fit justification in action to modern problems, and you're really not going to find anything in the New Testament in regards to ethno-nationalism, as all the work for that was done in the Old.
 

Aboulia

Woodpecker
Orthodox
Still, the idea is used as a cudgel against certain (mainly European) races and nations, especially in the sense of immigration policy, deracination policies, and redistribution of wealth along racial criteria.

We are ruled by a hostile elite because we are not thankful, not only tolerate but go along with evil, and do not repent (myself included)

All those things mentioned are morally wrong. Immigration is an evil for people shouldn't be uprooted from their connections and move to foreign lands except in times of natural disaster or famine. Those policies are all aimed at destroying natural connections, and thus resistance to globalist ideology. I have not met anyone that hates a person solely due to the colour of their skin, nor have I met anyone that identified as a "racist". This is why I personally have a huge problem with ideologically loaded terms like "racism","anti-semitism", "(insert prefix here)phobia" or the myriad of CRT "white X" terms as they aren't ever used in order to have an actual constructive discussion, but their clear intent is to attempt to silence/shame people into submission.

My favourite passage regarding this is Matthew 3:9. For if the Jews/Pharisees weren't to be held in higher regard according to their blood, then neither is anyone else.
 

Blade Runner

Ostrich
Orthodox
Do you all think there is any real difference in the modern/postmodern view towards those who are "white nationalists" or "religious nationalists"? It seems to me that the opposition to either is one of disdain or supposition that they are entirely fictional ideas, that wouldn't produce a more harmonious society.

The obvious irony is that the communist lite/socialist keep giving the same answers as to why their policies fail to make anything but a worse situation, for everyone and everything. The old "if we just did it the right way" lol
 

Basilus of Moro

Sparrow
Orthodox
The only Patristic material I’m aware of (which doesn’t mean much) is a quote from St. John Chrysostom that goes something like, “Before Christ, foreign people hated each other. Now we love one another.” Forgive me, I don’t recall the exact quote. In the Church, there are distinctions (ethnos persists), but they are not oppositional. They are united in Christ.

This means ethnic hatred is not blessed, but it doesn’t mean ethnic blindness or ethnic mixing is necessarily blessed, either. It is an issue for discernment. It’s good to preserve one’s ethnos, of course, but there are more ultimate things. That said, inter-ethnic / inter-racial marriage would be way less common were it not so heavily promoted. It’d still happen, and certainly has always happened occasionally, but not often. But if one marries someone of a different ethnos, the marriage is blessed and a path of salvation. One can speak of considering various factors before marriage, but once it comes, one is bound as in blood and spirit to the other. Thoughts that do harm to this unity in any regard are from the demons.
 

Coja Petrus Uscan

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
Gold Member
There are lots of things that are not specifically in The Bible, e.g. relating to modern technology. Then people interpret what is in The Bible or make things up.

There have been many examples of different peoples living together in the empires of men. When empires break break up the different peoples invariably begin separating themselves, often violently. Empires are held together by force, typically for the temporal gain of the ruler(s). They typically liked adding other peoples to their dominion. Some sort of peace was only possible via their force.

I don't see a basis of a Christian society in the colonial aspirations of leaders. Aspirations that usually lead to genocide when the leader's aspirations fail.

To presume mass immigration of different peoples should be perused is essentially to play God. It's been tried before and failed miserably, except in the cases people who have been ground down into a new identity. Yet proponents believe that if we just follow their political ideology, then it will be a wonderland. Similar to "that wasn't real communism".

As for why most people migrate, it is for economic reasons. At least in the new global empire. Very few people move to a poorer country because they see those people as brothers and sisters. So the basis for society tilts more to temporal concerns.

Deuteronomy 17:15
You shall surely set a king over you whom the Lord your God chooses, one from among your countrymen you shall set as king over yourselves; you may not put a foreigner over yourselves who is not your countryman.

But it also say not to treat the foreigner as an outsider.

Isn't there something about being flooded with foreigners as a punishment?
 

johngbeckham

Chicken
Orthodox Inquirer
From the wiki entry on "phyletism" (stress mine):



This is the correct way of stating the issue at hand and the way Orthodox understand it. Nothing more, nothing less. The Church is what it is, and it is defined in Orthodoxy as the local assembly of people who in faith, under a bishop, share the doctrine and practice of their forefathers and all those around the world in communion together that are of the same faith, practice and mind (or are trying to be and repenting when in error).

I think the issue we are having here (well stated, by the way, @Pantheon ) is the problem of people being together when they do not have the commonality, trust and diplomacy that they would or should have when their are obedient to the one, true God. Jones misses this point. Taylor, even in being accurate in what he states, of course can be used (since the culture is not a godly one) as a divider to further political gains by the sick elite - in fact, this is what we see - or rather, the response against it.

I could go on, but for now I'll leave it at this.
This sounds very neutral, and it goes with another theme I keep hearing, which is "balance" when addressing these issues.

But I think some people don't understand what balance means in the cultural context.

If you have a 990lb weight crushing your left foot, and a 10lb weight crushing your right foot, you don't need a 500lb force on each weight. You need a force that can move the 990lb weight off of your left foot, and a force that can move 10lbs to get the weight off your right foot.

So when you have issues like millions or tens of millions of criminal aliens coming into the country unrestricted and being granted citizenship,

or millions of minorities taking to the street to riot and attack police and anyone who holds traditional Christian values,

or every institution and government closing down churches and forcing you to inject yourself with poison,

and also around 10,000 people in a country of 325+ million who are unironically neo-nazis and klansmen,

It's not really balance to devote equal time to each. It's subversion. Although I appreciate the link, I don't believe phyletism has much to do with theology anyway, since it seems to be directed at the administration of churches moreso than any theological or philosophical principles.
 

johngbeckham

Chicken
Orthodox Inquirer
Fr John Whiteford, who's ROCOR, talks about race issues in a very relevant way that I agree with 100%. Granted I'm not concerned with approval of the America First/Groyper/Fuentes crowd or being viewed as "based". That said I've been a advocate for zero immigration for over 15 years. Not for genetic reasons. For economic, cultural and unity/cohesion reasons. There's nothing wrong with preferring X race for your wife or husband or getting along better with X culture etc. There's nothing wrong with advocating for zero immigration either IMO. However once you cross into being relieved that there's no X race at the Parish, condemning the sacrament of marriage because of "race mixing", or mocking "mixed race" children (who are Icons of Christ) etc etc you've crossed into the territory of overt racial idolatry IMO - all common behavior amongst the "dissident right". Even amongst those who call themselves Christian. BLM and CRT and the like has already been openly condemned by many Priest and rightfully so. However this isn't license to align with someone like Jared Taylor. Just my take tho.

The Sin and Heresy of Racial Separatism​

Interracial Marriage and the Orthodox Faith​

Thanks for sharing these articles, however, I find this alarming. In the first article, he begins by accepting the Satanic premise of unconscious racial bias, one of the founding pillars of critical race theory. Since this is only one man, I hope that he is not representative of the entire Orthodox Church.
 

johngbeckham

Chicken
Orthodox Inquirer
We are ruled by a hostile elite because we are not thankful, not only tolerate but go along with evil, and do not repent (myself included)

All those things mentioned are morally wrong. Immigration is an evil for people shouldn't be uprooted from their connections and move to foreign lands except in times of natural disaster or famine. Those policies are all aimed at destroying natural connections, and thus resistance to globalist ideology. I have not met anyone that hates a person solely due to the colour of their skin, nor have I met anyone that identified as a "racist". This is why I personally have a huge problem with ideologically loaded terms like "racism","anti-semitism", "(insert prefix here)phobia" or the myriad of CRT "white X" terms as they aren't ever used in order to have an actual constructive discussion, but their clear intent is to attempt to silence/shame people into submission.

My favourite passage regarding this is Matthew 3:9. For if the Jews/Pharisees weren't to be held in higher regard according to their blood, then neither is anyone else.
Thanks Aboulia, I appreciate your posts and your perspective. I would give them a like, but I apparently can't yet, or I'm just too much a boomer to figure it out.
 

johngbeckham

Chicken
Orthodox Inquirer
The only Patristic material I’m aware of (which doesn’t mean much) is a quote from St. John Chrysostom that goes something like, “Before Christ, foreign people hated each other. Now we love one another.” Forgive me, I don’t recall the exact quote. In the Church, there are distinctions (ethnos persists), but they are not oppositional. They are united in Christ.

This means ethnic hatred is not blessed, but it doesn’t mean ethnic blindness or ethnic mixing is necessarily blessed, either. It is an issue for discernment. It’s good to preserve one’s ethnos, of course, but there are more ultimate things. That said, inter-ethnic / inter-racial marriage would be way less common were it not so heavily promoted. It’d still happen, and certainly has always happened occasionally, but not often. But if one marries someone of a different ethnos, the marriage is blessed and a path of salvation. One can speak of considering various factors before marriage, but once it comes, one is bound as in blood and spirit to the other. Thoughts that do harm to this unity in any regard are from the demons.
I wasn't able to find that particular quote, but I did find this one:

"For he will endure foreign travels, hatreds, dangers, plots, anything whatever, only that he may have in his house the root of all evil, and may count much gold."

In it, St. Chrysostom lists several evils, including foreign travels, which suggests that traveling outside of your native country is an evil or at the very least a hardship that should be avoided. He further expounds on the idea that doing this for the sake of wealth is the height of foolishness, which would suggest that he is opposed to the type of economic migrations we see as commonplace today.

For context, these are the preceding few lines from before the above quote:

"But why speak I of friends? the lovers of money have often ignored nature itself. Such a one knows not kindred, remembers not companionship, reverences not age, has no friend, but will be ill-disposed towards all, and above all others to himself, not only by destroying his soul, but by racking himself with ten thousand cares, and toils, and sorrows."

The lines about "knows not kindred" and "has no friend" especially lead me to believe that he was firmly in favor of putting down roots and keeping them, especially with regard to being around blood relations. He even goes so far as to call such a condition of living (economic migration) "unnatural" which is quite the heavy accusation from a Biblical context, ranking up there with homosexuality and other grave sins.
 
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Black Ortho Acolyte

Chicken
Orthodox Inquirer
Thanks for sharing these articles, however, I find this alarming. In the first article, he begins by accepting the Satanic premise of unconscious racial bias, one of the founding pillars of critical race theory. Since this is only one man, I hope that he is not representative of the entire Orthodox Church.
Sure thing brother. If all of the American Clergy were like Fr John Whiteford it'd be a heavy shift to the "right" for American Orthodoxy. His comment "Furthermore, we have to fight even unconscious forms of racism and ethnocentricism because these things are barriers that prevent people from coming into the Orthodox Church." is only problematic if we assume "and thus CRT and anti-white rhetoric is the solution". I think ultimately our response to various fully Orthodox teachings will depend on what baggage we have coming into The Church. Example there are many potential "left leaning" or "centrist" converts that would take issue with Fr Joseph Gleasons article below. Yet I see no conflict between what he expresses or and what Fr John Whiteford does.

BLM EXCOMMUNICATED: Priest Denies Communion to All Members of Black Lives Matter​

 
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