What does it mean that "game" is dead?

Viktor Zeegelaar

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
Some like to think that. There are Men out there that have decided MGTOW is the only sane route given todays world and at the same time have proven their biological 'fitness'. See Coach Adams marriage wheel videos.


I understand the MGTOW dynamic surely. Where it can go wrong is if it becomes a very bitter, hateful attitude towards modern women. Yes I know most modern women are absolutely trash and useless in their behavior and what they bring to your life as a man, but let's say judge the sin and not the sinner, it's no use in the ''blackpill'' attitude laughing at women in their late 30s in desperation, crying on Tictoc, freezing their eggs and so on. That's mere entertainment about the misdirection these hordes of modern women have just absorbed since the day they were born - sure everyone has to take accountability (which is almost impossible for women in general though), but let's be real here, the entire culture is designed to make you experience Demosis, turning into a demon essentially. We all lose in this game, so let's hope we can all crash and crumble to the ground as soon as possible so we can help each other rebuild one another, with mentors such as Roosh guiding the way initially.
 

analyst_green

Sparrow
Other Christian
Since the 50's prosperity has all been up and up, and got to the point where the females were mating utterly indiscriminately because that's just what happens to them in r-selection. It was up and up and up until around 2008-2010, when the US ended its "forever upwards" cycle. The females are very sensitive to this, so they became aware first in their mating habits that it was no longer the "smart policy" to mate repeatedly so their offspring could gobble up a bigger part of the infinite pile. Doesn't work when the pile isn't infinite!
This is a good point, but another trend has been going on for decades and that's the fact that women have been putting off marriage until later and later in their lives. So even if they're starting to look more for a provider type now, rather than having kids with some "alpha" male jokester, they're not doing it until their late 20s at least. That's after they've slept around for years and pretty much ruined themselves.

It depends on the age. That 33 year old woman you're mentioning (I suppose you mean women after 33), she is looking for the LTR qualities. However, the 21 year old woman will punish any LTR signs there are for she only thinks short term, for the cool and fun guys who spark the emotions, get her in the rollercoaster. But at 33 yeah for sure she's realizing that her feminine value, things like youth, beauty, fertility, are running out and the attention dwindles, then certainly it hits her that she needs 50 years of protection, provisioning, safety and stability, and then the good guy that was wrecked in her 20s can come in. It truly hurts me to see so many guys ''saving'' these women in their 30s and then getting wrecked in the aftermath in a disastrous relationship as she's come in with a bunch of baggage and bad habits, resulting in divorce, financial destruction, psychological destrution, and so on.
I think he meant that after a man passes 33, it gets more difficult to lock down a good mate. Because women today are conditioned to reject large age gaps, and the best an average man in his mid thirties can usually do in America do is a woman in her late twenties. Which, as I've said, usually means someone damaged who will screw you over.

When we really get down to it, the biggest issue is the lack of interest in young women, early to mid twenties, in marriage and children. I certainly don't think it's realistic to find a pure virgin these days. But at least I hope to find a girl who's thin, around 23-25, that has maybe had one or two long term boyfriends. And this demographic is hard to find and still not thinking about marriage or anything serious too often. I think it can be done, but you need to be lucky, or have high status/game/charm to attract them.

My plan is to work on myself now. Quit porn, get in shape, focus on spiritual development, boost my earning potential, etc. If I've given it an honest good shot for the next few years and I'm still single at 33, I'm going to seriously consider leaving the US.
 

loremipsum

Woodpecker
I used to laugh at MGTOW but as I get older I realize there really is not a single thing that a modern secular women would bring to the table, aside from extra baggage from carousel days and the same social dynamics she had with her parents (which are usually bad).
If you are not Christian, you're in for a hell of a ride. The dating market of today will destroy your mind, as engineered by certain individuals. You are given the choice of either being an incel or being in a relationship with a broken woman and getting that weary thousand yard stare day by day. Even being a MGTOW without being Christian will make you a nihilist.

When Roosh wrote 'Game' his crucial point was that game is getting harder. And that was back then, now its on a whole another level.
 

Arcite

Sparrow
Hey guys, this is all very interesting, but it doesn't answer my main question:
If a guy goes up to a girl in 2022, and tries these Mystery method-style routines on her, and her reaction is not to become attracted to him... what is her reaction?
Can anyone she some light on this?
 

Viktor Zeegelaar

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
Hey guys, this is all very interesting, but it doesn't answer my main question:

Can anyone she some light on this?
The routines in itself will still work to some degree. Sure with some tricks you'll trigger some attraction points. The main point is that due to mentioned factors there's such an abundance of attention, continuously, all the time, and of seemingly ''high value'' men, that the impact of you coming up with some canned lines will be more like drops in the ocean, instead of drops in a cup like it was back in the day. If you once a week get to eat bread you'll be eager to eat that bread, you'll be excited, you'd be really willing to eat it. If you're spawned with bread all day, every day, all of the time, then it'll just loses its value. You'll still need to eat every other time, but eventually it's a matter of abundance or scarcity that decides how much you value the bread.
 

analyst_green

Sparrow
Other Christian
Hey guys, this is all very interesting, but it doesn't answer my main question:

Can anyone she some light on this?
I've been with some of my friends who do this. Usually the girl just shuts down and becomes very disinterested. She looks at her phone or makes up an excuse to leave. More rarely she engages in a proper conversation. It's like they've lost the social skills to even talk to you. It wasn't this bad even 5 years ago.

Actually I remember seeing one guy hit on a beautiful girl on a bus in Croatia. It was summer 2020 and she was the only one not wearing the legally mandated face diaper. I can only understand a little of their language, but she was smiling and having a pleasant time, clearly engaged in the conversation even if I'm not sure she was interested in him. There was a sense of mutual respect. It struck me because I realized how I never see this kind of interaction in America anymore. American women are never actually present in the moment. They are slaves to their phones and to the egoic images they have of themselves.
 

CaliforniaBased

Woodpecker
Catholic
I've been with some of my friends who do this. Usually the girl just shuts down and becomes very disinterested. She looks at her phone or makes up an excuse to leave. More rarely she engages in a proper conversation. It's like they've lost the social skills to even talk to you. It wasn't this bad even 5 years ago.

Actually I remember seeing one guy hit on a beautiful girl on a bus in Croatia. It was summer 2020 and she was the only one not wearing the legally mandated face diaper. I can only understand a little of their language, but she was smiling and having a pleasant time, clearly engaged in the conversation even if I'm not sure she was interested in him. There was a sense of mutual respect. It struck me because I realized how I never see this kind of interaction in America anymore. American women are never actually present in the moment. They are slaves to their phones and to the egoic images they have of themselves.

That's not true. It is more than possible to engage girls in conversation. Your friend probably does not display enough self confidence. If anyting I would say it is the MEN in Croatia that are more competent.

You guys often go about how girls like the "cool" guys. You have to realize the most sought after part of being cool as a guy is being masculine in your behavior. Obviously as men we need to be manly and face the challenges of life so you can take care of the girl and the family you might have with her. Being self confident and unafraid is very important in getting by in the world.
 

Max Roscoe

Hummingbird
Orthodox Inquirer
Basically the smart phone has ruined socialization and western women are too masculine. Social distancing has been programmed into their minds, and when you violate that rule, women find it anti-social and scary because you are going against societal norms.

I've found women rarely even make eye contact with me, when walking around the neighborhood. I'm a tall guy, which women universally like, but they dont even look up from their phone to see if I'm attractive to them, if they know me, if I'm someone famous, etc.. I almost think Brad Pitt could walk down the street in many cities and unless someone tweeted about him being there, no woman would recognize him, because they're too far in their own world, staring at their screens or at the sidewalk, as their ears are filled with awful music.

Game was always viewed as a sort of "societal hack" and even the most degenerate adherents of it would readily admit it was not really an ideal situation, but it was making the best of the cards we were dealt with. I forget the term that was used at the time, but it was basically "This is clown world and this is how you enjoy the decline, instead of sitting at home alone." Everyone knew it was not good or sustainable. And there was the admission that easy women were slutty and of low value, but the choice was easy women or no women at all.

The world has changed, so it makes sense that the temporary hack that was game no longer works.

I've told this story before about my buddy who works with millennials at a grocery store. He says they often cannot make it through their shift without going in the back and crying, and sometimes needing to clock out and go home early because the stress of operating a cash register for 60 minutes before taking a break is too much for them.

This is not due to rude customers, but just from the "stress" of doing their job. They cannot handle the "stress" from a stranger asking them questions, or I guess the "eye raping" that occurs if there is a long line and the cashier looks up and makes eye contact with the customers waiting on her, and this gives her a panic attack.

Plus we have 2 years of covid, which not only altered human socialization and stressed "SOCIAL DISTANCING" but structurally and physically changed the brain in developing adolescents, and the end result is mentally damaged individuals and loss of social bonding (both same-sex and romantic). Due to covid, they are not used to strangers talking to them, and will probably be scared or confused if a stranger tells them something.

Go watch any film or TV show prior to 2000 and look at the playful banter there will be between people of the opposite sex. There is NONE of that anymore. You can't banter or "neg" a woman because they are stressed out by just everyday neutral things. Anything mildly negative will make them freak out.

So this kind of interaction is no longer possible, because the girl probably wouldn't even respond or look at you if you tried, much less smile and be interested.



That's essentially what game was at its heart. Taking the kind of carefree, playful, easy going attitude towards women that you see throughout history, from people like Cary Grant to Sean Connery to Saved By The Bell. You can't be playful or tease women anymore because it's mean and you are being a patriarchal oppressive colonizer if you do so. And it's evil to want to date a white man anyway. They have just been too heavily propagandized and empowered, and they are now given the masculine position of power, which is an inversion of nature, so of course the old time tested rules do not work in an upside down world.

Even a decade ago, no one really listened to women outside of specific roles (ie your wife, your mother, your teacher). But today, if a woman speaks, you had better shut up and listen. The King is speaking. This is an inversion and you cannot use game to flirt with the King, or a woman pretending to be a King. It only works on feminine women and they are being eradicated.
 

Arcite

Sparrow
The routines in itself will still work to some degree. Sure with some tricks you'll trigger some attraction points. The main point is that due to mentioned factors there's such an abundance of attention, continuously, all the time, and of seemingly ''high value'' men, that the impact of you coming up with some canned lines will be more like drops in the ocean, instead of drops in a cup like it was back in the day. If you once a week get to eat bread you'll be eager to eat that bread, you'll be excited, you'd be really willing to eat it. If you're spawned with bread all day, every day, all of the time, then it'll just loses its value. You'll still need to eat every other time, but eventually it's a matter of abundance or scarcity that decides how much you value the bread.
So, would it be accurate to say this:

Humans are social animals, and as long as we're not in a situation where we're already over-stimulated a social interaction gives us a little "kick," a dopamine hit if you will. In the pre-smartphone era, when the only way to have social interactions was in-person, a girl would feel such a "kick" if a guy approached her. But now, because of smartphones, girls walk around in a state of perpetual over-stimulation. Their dopamine receptors are already constantly saturated from swiping right on Chad on Tinder and scrolling through Instagram, so if a guy approaches in person and starts talking to her, it doesn't give her that "kick" or dopamine hit; instead, she feels nothing or is annoyed.

Is that it?

I've found women rarely even make eye contact with me, when walking around the neighborhood. I'm a tall guy, which women universally like, but they dont even look up from their phone to see if I'm attractive to them, if they know me, if I'm someone famous, etc.. I almost think Brad Pitt could walk down the street in many cities and unless someone tweeted about him being there, no woman would recognize him, because they're too far in their own world, staring at their screens or at the sidewalk, as their ears are filled with awful music.
I agree, strangers in public don't make eye contact anymore. If a person isn't looking at their phone, they will be looking down or away. However, I didn't notice this change until 2016, and it was rather sudden, coinciding with my moving to a new state, while the first iPhone came out in 2007 and IIRC the smartphone revolution really hit it big in 2009. So I've never been sure whether this was really due to smartphones, or whether it's a cultural difference in the area I moved to.
 

Mr Freedom

Woodpecker
Orthodox Inquirer
The world has changed, so it makes sense that the temporary hack that was game no longer works.

I've told this story before about my buddy who works with millennials at a grocery store. He says they often cannot make it through their shift without going in the back and crying, and sometimes needing to clock out and go home early because the stress of operating a cash register for 60 minutes before taking a break is too much for them.

This is not due to rude customers, but just from the "stress" of doing their job. They cannot handle

That's essentially what game was at its heart. Taking the kind of carefree, playful, easy going attitude towards women that you see throughout history, from people like Cary Grant to Sean Connery to Saved By The Bell. You can't be playful or tease women anymore because it's mean and you are being a patriarchal oppressive colonizer if you do so. And it's evil to want to date a white man anyway. They have just been too heavily propagandized and empowered, and they are now given the masculine position of power, which is an inversion of nature, so of course the old time tested rules do not work in an upside down world.

Even a decade ago, no one really listened to women outside of specific roles (ie your wife, your mother, your teacher). But today, if a woman speaks, you had better shut up and listen. The King is speaking. This is an inversion and you cannot use game to flirt with the King, or a woman pretending to be a King. It only works on feminine women and they are being eradicated.

These are some very good points

I would also lile to add that this brings me back to my previous point of Western women essentially being 2nd rate males with female body parts.

For example woman being shoehorned into management positions when they obviously lack the leadership abilities or technical aptitude for such a role. The men do the work whilst they drink a latte somewhere & take credit via a corporations instagram post or twitter feed who take a photo of them posing in front of an office window or something.

Modern woman are taking the "king" position without having the abilities a king would have

Another sign of peak inversion is women no longer responding to game. Now Women are the "kings" of game. But instead of doing a cold approach & facing cold hard rejection, abusive behavior or even physical violence like a man would they slide into dm's or use bumble and/or other social media to approach men they want to fornicate with over the comfort of a computer screen.

Btw I garuntee you that some of the peak deluded one's probably think men have it on easy mode because of how easy online dating is for them.

Essentially onto my main point in this inverted society the women rule, but they rule like beta males, in a very cowardly & ignorant way.
 

Mr Freedom

Woodpecker
Orthodox Inquirer
So, would it be accurate to say this:

Humans are social animals, and as long as we're not in a situation where we're already over-stimulated a social interaction gives us a little "kick," a dopamine hit if you will. In the pre-smartphone era, when the only way to have social interactions was in-person, a girl would feel such a "kick" if a guy approached her. But now, because of smartphones, girls walk around in a state of perpetual over-stimulation. Their dopamine receptors are already constantly saturated from swiping right on Chad on Tinder and scrolling through Instagram, so if a guy approaches in person and starts talking to her, it doesn't give her that "kick" or dopamine hit; instead, she feels nothing or is annoyed.

Is that it?


I agree, strangers in public don't make eye contact anymore. If a person isn't looking at their phone, they will be looking down or away. However, I didn't notice this change until 2016, and it was rather sudden, coinciding with my moving to a new state, while the first iPhone came out in 2007 and IIRC the smartphone revolution really hit it big in 2009. So I've never been sure whether this was really due to smartphones, or whether it's a cultural difference in the area I moved to.

In the London Transport system in the UK they had adverts up telling woman to report men who make eye contact with them to the police

That says it all really..
 

Cynllo

Ostrich
Orthodox Inquirer
The 80/20 rule is now closer to the 95/5. If you are a "Chad" the world is your oyster. It all goes down in the DMs, as they say. With everyone online now, women only look at and respond to men who are in the top tier of looks and height. Before anyone says that these are superficial, worldly women, most every woman nowadays has an Instagram account. They say Facebook is for old people.

There was some research data posted earlier in the year. It showed fornication rates by age-bracket, gender - over the period about 2000-2020. From this you could deduce that (now) in the 18-25 bracket there are about 30% of males fornicating with 70% of women. And over time the rates average out to about 80% of men and 80% of women in the 35-40 age bracket.

Which leads to another point. There is far too much generalisation and focus on a few facets. There is far too much colouring of the world based on the doldrums of apps and women prone to fornication. It's often said that women are constantly attention mining and hooking up from Tinder. But more women are not active on Tinder. The reality is women are fornicating as much as they were 20 years ago, but with fewer men (since 2008).

There are numerous reasons for the change in women's behaviour, which all contribute to women being less interested in men; and hence the growing trend of women sharing men. In short, women (particularly Western women) don't need men. I think a core of this is that the genuine desire for a husband and children has gone from a universal thing, to something on her to do list, to something increasing amounts of women have no interest in. Increasingly women think having a family and children is hetronormative, sexist, climate villainy. On the other end of the liberal spectrum you have women who are addicted to status, lifestyle etc. On the left-right spectrum men are somewhere on the scale of abominations who need to prostrate themselves before opening their mouths; and an accessory. They are not someone to spend your life with and continue your culture with. Your doing well if you can get someone in the centre of that spectrum, as opposed to off it - not secular.

Also you know the inversion is nearly complete when broadcasting LTR qualities actually has women ghost more.

I met a 19yo girl from Kazakhstan earlier in the year. It seemed extremely good with her, but then she ignored all my messages, so I left it. She just messaged me last night. I feel it's just hamstering. I don't think I mean anything to her other than an exotic form of interest. She is close to non-communicative on Telegram, while very talkative IRL. This hamstering behaviour is very common. Getting a short sentence reply to a couple of paragraphs is very common. I've always found, I've either got a girl's attention firmly, or I'm just some trinket and I can never get over the hurdle to any real connection. It's normally the latter.

For men, we are in the position that most of us need to meet large numbers of women and hope one, for whatever reason, takes genuine interest in us. That's always been the case for me. I don't have several options and choose the best one. I stumble across one person who has singled me out and that's my only choice.

This is something new. I've been to many countries and know of the different dating/courtship setups. There are countries where it's not really the opposite. But it's equal. There are two equalisers:

1) traditional guards to dating culture remain in place, in which case most people choose one person for life
2) the country is poor and women need or are much better off with men for financial security


When I was in Turkey I was telling a girl of a far-left cuckasaurus from the UK, who wanted to get his gf pregnant to lock her down. She said that only happens the other way round in Turkey - i.e. a woman trying to lock down a high-value man in a culture where pregnancy is liable to trigger a shotgun wedding. We are far over the verge of men being useless tassals in the West.
 

Cynllo

Ostrich
Orthodox Inquirer
in which case most people choose one person for life

This part is absolutely key. You can't have whacked out attention-thots if women can only choose one man. Whoever it's going to be there will be some spark to it. Even if it's a charwoman picking a chimneysweep, he will be the only man who she ever knows. And this system goes hand-in-hand with maintaining the desire for family and children.

Monarchy.
 

CaliforniaBased

Woodpecker
Catholic
Basically the smart phone has ruined socialization and western women are too masculine. Social distancing has been programmed into their minds, and when you violate that rule, women find it anti-social and scary because you are going against societal norms.

I've found women rarely even make eye contact with me, when walking around the neighborhood. I'm a tall guy, which women universally like, but they dont even look up from their phone to see if I'm attractive to them, if they know me, if I'm someone famous, etc.. I almost think Brad Pitt could walk down the street in many cities and unless someone tweeted about him being there, no woman would recognize him, because they're too far in their own world, staring at their screens or at the sidewalk, as their ears are filled with awful music.
Gender roles are still extremely pronounced among lower social classes and immigrants and also the whole frat/sorority scene.

I am 26 and of average height, and on good days, many a nice girl will be happy to smile and say hi. I also find that liberal girls can be very nice (though quite undesirable).

"Game" is really just having a high sense of self worth and good social skills - and I will say that still goes a very long way.
 

TheosisSeeker

 
Banned
Orthodox Catechumen
I had another thought which contributes to the women don't need men argument.

More and more women are having children through scientific means like IVF and other methods.

So even the career focused arrogant spinster female with an undesirable personality can potentially have kids without a man.
 

Viktor Zeegelaar

Crow
Orthodox Inquirer
I had another thought which contributes to the women don't need men argument.

More and more women are having children through scientific means like IVF and other methods.

So even the career focused arrogant spinster female with an undesirable personality can potentially have kids without a man.
I was researching egg freezing the other day and turns out on average it works only 40 percent of the time. To be fair latest stats I could find were merely 20k in the US, I had expected more.
 

Max Roscoe

Hummingbird
Orthodox Inquirer
I had another thought which contributes to the women don't need men argument.

More and more women are having children through scientific means like IVF and other methods.

So even the career focused arrogant spinster female with an undesirable personality can potentially have kids without a man.
Or adopting. Or just getting pets.

They have created a world, where many (including myself and many good men I know) are hesitant to bring children into it.
So then why marry? This was all by design.
 

Blade Runner

Crow
Orthodox
MGTOWs are men who have found a way to intellectualise their biological unfitness.

If there's any scene out there that has the quiet, yet unmistakable sound of palm rubbing in the background, that's one of them.
One can go too far with all of this. For the current clown world, which includes massive increase in population due to calorie production, medical innovation, welfare dysgenics, and central bank monetization/planning, yes these men are "unfit." We all see or remember times when men actually had respect and deference in the society, and thus, control. So it is an ebb and flow, and it is rather subjective to be honest. I think the biggest thing on this topic, and this forum, is the dividing line of the upper 5% who have some expectations of women to enter into LTRs or marriage, versus those 5s and lower who complain all the time because they are lucky to be alive in many ways, but unlucky to be alive with testosterone and not a good genetic or family makeup, relative to (the massive number of) others in the modern world.
 

Nordwand

Pelican
Other Christian
I had another thought which contributes to the women don't need men argument.

More and more women are having children through scientific means like IVF and other methods.

So even the career focused arrogant spinster female with an undesirable personality can potentially have kids without a man.
God help the child if it's a boy.
 
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