What is Orthodox Christianity?

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
infowarrior1 said:
NoMoreTO said:
….
So while I think the Baptists focus on understanding the bible is admirable, I think that the Orthodox value on tradition and ceremony has a spiritual element to it that should not be under estimated.
I think Baptists and a lot of the Protestants did throw out a lot of the baby with the bathwater. Architecturally and liturgically.
Agree. I do love myself a beautiful church with great Architecture and stain glass windows. It says something positive that churches were the most beautiful buildings constructed. A protestant can go to church at a community centre or any building, which is fine, but kind of brings me down.

The liturgical concept feels very normal to me, but I am not sure we can ever know if this is 'how' a Christian is supposed to worship.
The idea of people participating in an act such as palm sunday that represents something , or burning of incense, I find this fine. Some protestants think it is idol stuff, but I feel that is a little extreme.

On the other hand, I do feel that there is sometimes a history of the clergy not wanting or encouraging laymen to understand the bible. This is one thing that some protestants do well, they explain the bible as they preach, and encourage people to read the words.
 

Easy_C

Crow
The anti-Catholic brainwashing is strong here.

If you're going to attack at the Church ( and there is plenty to pick at, because they're not in a great place right now under Francis's leadership) you could do better than to recite the talking points of Christian Zionists like Jack Chick.
 

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
Easy_C said:
The anti-Catholic brainwashing is strong here.

If you're going to attack at the Church ( and there is plenty to pick at, because they're not in a great place right now under Francis's leadership) you could do better than to recite the talking points of Christian Zionists like Jack Chick.
What is the brainwashing? I've never seen one this Jack Chick guys cartoons in my life.
 

Samseau

Owl
Gold Member
Another thing about Orthodox Christianity:

All of the rituals are packed with symbolism and meaning. Every position of the priest, each scent used, the shape and numbers of the candles, the words of the hymns, the clothing and attire of the clergy, the figures the Priests and Bishops make with their hands, and even when the priest places emphasis on certain words when reading from the Bible - ALL of it is deliberate and has been crafted over 1900 years, with every part of each ritual in reference to scripture or the life of a saint.

It may look like a boring procession, but once you understand why the details are arranged in the order they are, you will see that the rituals are all designed to remind the viewer about specific parts of the gospel or honor Christ or a saint.

You can literally spend hundreds of hours learning how the rituals were constructed over the centuries and the meanings behind everything done.

The rituals are a huge part of what binds the Orthodox service through the centuries and gives faith to the laity that they are doing the same tradition and worship as has been done since the days the Apostles walked the earth.


EDIT:

This is also why Protestantism is redundant and offers very little that Orthodoxy cannot. Protestants rebelled against the Catholics to worship as the early Christians did, as if the Bible communicated with them like they are Antiochians and such, right? Well guess what, the Orthodox are literally using the same rituals and kinds of worship developed by the Antiochians and Ephesians. That's why the Greeks today use the same rituals they developed under the Apostle Paul and call themselves Orthodox!
 

Samseau

Owl
Gold Member
Spectrumwalker said:
Samseau said:
Have you ever read the Bible bro?
Samseau. Welcome back. I'll write up a rebuttle soon. I'm on my last couple of days vacation and have some farewells to make and things to do. Don't want to rush it. I suppose you've given me something to do at 30,000 feet.
No problem bro. Take your time and think it through.
 

infowarrior1

Hummingbird
Samseau said:
Another thing about Orthodox Christianity:

All of the rituals are packed with symbolism and meaning. Every position of the priest, each scent used, the shape and numbers of the candles, the words of the hymns, the clothing and attire of the clergy, the figures the Priests and Bishops make with their hands, and even when the priest places emphasis on certain words when reading from the Bible - ALL of it is deliberate and has been crafted over 1900 years, with every part of each ritual in reference to scripture or the life of a saint.

It may look like a boring procession, but once you understand why the details are arranged in the order they are, you will see that the rituals are all designed to remind the viewer about specific parts of the gospel or honor Christ or a saint.

You can literally spend hundreds of hours learning how the rituals were constructed over the centuries and the meanings behind everything done.

The rituals are a huge part of what binds the Orthodox service through the centuries and gives faith to the laity that they are doing the same tradition and worship as has been done since the days the Apostles walked the earth.


EDIT:

This is also why Protestantism is redundant and offers very little that Orthodoxy cannot. Protestants rebelled against the Catholics to worship as the early Christians did, as if the Bible communicated with them like they are Antiochians and such, right? Well guess what, the Orthodox are literally using the same rituals and kinds of worship developed by the Antiochians and Ephesians. That's why the Greeks today use the same rituals they developed under the Apostle Paul and call themselves Orthodox!
Perhaps. Although I still do find problems with Orthodox theology that they share in common with Catholicism.


Marian Doctrines. And others. Although I find the concept of Energy-essence distinction interesting.

I would wonder how the Reformation would have turned out differently if the Reformed were as familiar with Eastern Orthodoxy as Roman Catholicism.
 

Mage

 
infowarrior1 said:
I would wonder how the Reformation would have turned out differently if the Reformed were as familiar with Eastern Orthodoxy as Roman Catholicism.
Would be the same. It's all politics. Really naive to think people changed their faith by emphasizing a few Bible sentences more then others due to real theological reasons. Protestants rebelled against clergy as social class. It's political and economical. They adjusted their theology accordingly to justify their actions.
 

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
Samseau said:
This is also why Protestantism is redundant and offers very little that Orthodoxy cannot. Protestants rebelled against the Catholics to worship as the early Christians did, as if the Bible communicated with them like they are Antiochians and such, right? Well guess what, the Orthodox are literally using the same rituals and kinds of worship developed by the Antiochians and Ephesians. That's why the Greeks today use the same rituals they developed under the Apostle Paul and call themselves Orthodox!
This is really interesting and is a big answer to a question I asked earlier in the thread.

Was there a moment where the mass traditions were recorded or codified by the Antiochians & Ephesians? I wonder if they worshipped differently than the Romans or early Coptics?

We know that even amongst the areas Christianity was spread directly (books of the bible), there was some drifting in approach, beliefs, and likely mass traditions. For instance, groups who were preached to would end up 200 years down the road having different beliefs and on worship and divinity. This is when the Council of Nicea came into place in 325AD.

I was just looking into council of nicea online, and we can see very quickly from Wikipedia that liturgical methods including the practice of standing during liturgy were discussed. So this method of worship is shown to be being used in very early times.
 

Thersites

Kingfisher
infowarrior1 said:
I think Baptists and a lot of the Protestants did throw out a lot of the baby with the bathwater. Architecturally and liturgically.
Its one things I hate about Baptist churches with modern architecture. There is no sense of grandeur in the church or soul in such place for me. You post reminds me of the infamous line of "...meek shall inherit the earth", as prime example of lost of liturgically value for many churches in the US. Failing to understand the meek in English does not mean the same word it translate from Greek, praus. The proper translation is demonstrating power without undue harshness. Which is lost to many pastors due today, as Christians are taught to be passive and weak instead of strong and discipline.

Samseau said:
Another thing about Orthodox Christianity:

All of the rituals are packed with symbolism and meaning. Every position of the priest, each scent used, the shape and numbers of the candles, the words of the hymns, the clothing and attire of the clergy, the figures the Priests and Bishops make with their hands, and even when the priest places emphasis on certain words when reading from the Bible - ALL of it is deliberate and has been crafted over 1900 years, with every part of each ritual in reference to scripture or the life of a saint.

It may look like a boring procession, but once you understand why the details are arranged in the order they are, you will see that the rituals are all designed to remind the viewer about specific parts of the gospel or honor Christ or a saint.

You can literally spend hundreds of hours learning how the rituals were constructed over the centuries and the meanings behind everything done.

The rituals are a huge part of what binds the Orthodox service through the centuries and gives faith to the laity that they are doing the same tradition and worship as has been done since the days the Apostles walked the earth.


EDIT:

This is also why Protestantism is redundant and offers very little that Orthodoxy cannot. Protestants rebelled against the Catholics to worship as the early Christians did, as if the Bible communicated with them like they are Antiochians and such, right? Well guess what, the Orthodox are literally using the same rituals and kinds of worship developed by the Antiochians and Ephesians. That's why the Greeks today use the same rituals they developed under the Apostle Paul and call themselves Orthodox!
The theatrical aspect from the Greeks plays can be found in how Christians celebrate mass for example, garments of the priest, and how the congregation sings like the chorus of play. Its amazing how much Christianity has incorporated practices of different cultures in worship, depending on denomination and region. Speaking as Indian Orthodox.
 

debeguiled

Peacock
Gold Member
Samseau said:
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”"

Obviously if you've heard his word then you know going to heaven is based on following God's laws.

If you do not follow God's laws, then you aren't 'always saved.' Someone who sins after hearing the word of Christ, did not actually hear anything nor accepted Christ into his heart.

Orthodox Christianity is the only Church that teaches this, to my knowledge. Heartbreaking as it is, most "Christians" cannot even quote the most fundamental sentence of the Bible.

Anyone who claims they are teaching the Bible but doesn't quote the Book of Matthew almost never has any idea of what Christ was about.
I have attended many services in Protestant and Evangelical churches and they all understand this perfectly well.

It is not accurate to say only the Orthodox denomination teaches it and the business about not quoting the Gospel of Matthew is a straw man. Protestants teach the Gospel of Matthew for God's sake.

Using your own passage from scripture, it is very obvious that what was important to Jesus was that we love God and each other.

The Orthodox way seems to have worked out all these nit picky intellectual positions to bolster their idea of themselves as the best faith of all.

I don't think Jesus gives a rat's ass whether you believe in works, or you believe in faith alone but naturally do what Jesus commands out of love for him (Which is how most Protestants/Evangelicals deal with the issue of works).

It amounts to the same thing, they are just coming at it from a different angle.

The once saved always saved types are no different from the Catholics who sin with impunity because they have the sacrament of confession.

A hypocrite is a hypocrite no matter the denomination.

The way I look at it is, Jesus is the music, and the lyrics are part of the music.

Often the Orthodox commentators that I hear online seem to be people who don't hear the music, they only know the words and appear to think that is all there is.

(Not looking at you, Samseau, on that last sentence. I'm thinking more of people like Jay Dyer who have endless theological points, sub-points, references to obscure church fathers, and then end up calling people who disagree with them dum dums, characters, retards, or tell them they argue like girls. They may mention the word love once in a blue moon, but all they have for dissenters is mockery and condescension.)
 

Samseau

Owl
Gold Member
Not looking at you, Samseau, on that last sentence. I'm thinking more of people like Jay Dyer who have endless theological points, sub-points, references to obscure church fathers, and then end up calling people who disagree with them dum dums, characters, retards, or tell them they argue like girls. They may mention the word love once in a blue moon, but all they have for dissenters is mockery and condescension.
Yeah, that's bad. Apparently this guy missed the part where Jesus said calling your brother a fool can render you liable to hellfire :laugh:

And Paul understood this the same way, teaching "Revilers shall not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Using your own passage from scripture, it is very obvious that what was important to Jesus was that we love God and each other.
It's literally the foundation of Christ's thought and every single teaching he has can be reduced back to the greatest commandments. Christ teaches a consistent philosophical system based around these two principles. It's actually genius in its simplicity and scale.

For a pastor or Church not to mention this does a grave disservice to anyone trying to learn or follow Christ's teachings.
 

Kurgan

Kingfisher
NoMoreTO said:
Easy_C said:
The anti-Catholic brainwashing is strong here.

If you're going to attack at the Church ( and there is plenty to pick at, because they're not in a great place right now under Francis's leadership) you could do better than to recite the talking points of Christian Zionists like Jack Chick.
What is the brainwashing? I've never seen one this Jack Chick guys cartoons in my life.
Chick Tracts

Enjoy. The tracts pretty much rip on every religion that's not Christian Fundamentalism. I have never seen one where the Orthodox Church is attacked before.
 
samifon said:
Orthodox Christianity is not the true faith. There are a myriad of un-biblical doctrines and practices.

1) The trinity doctrine. The bible clearly states that God, the Father is one. (1 Cor 8:6, 1 Tim 2:5, John 17:1)

2) Using intermediaries. (Praying to Saints, Confessing to a Priest.) (1 Tim 2:5)

3) Warped view of sexuality. Polygamy is good and there are no prohibitions against premarital sex. (2 Samuel 12:8, Leviticus 18)

4) Easter and Christmas are pagan holidays modified for Christianity.
I am here as a resource, given that I am eastern orthodox and am convinced it is the one, true church --- that is, the body of the god-man who is known as Jesus Christ in the English language.

None of the above criticisms are remotely legitimate or convincing to anyone who knows what the gospel (evangelion) is.

First, the gospel of Matthew quotes Jesus of Nazareth commanding us Christians to make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ... and He will be with us until the end of the ages.

Second, the Church is the God of the living, we all pray for one another, anything else misunderstands scripture and what the church is. Thinking the Saints are "dead" when we "live" is breathtakingly silly at best, stupid at worst.

Third, sex outside of the context of marriage is not accepted as proper. Not knowing this is astonishing.

Fourth, and I can explain this further, anything capable of being christianized ... was. One should have more knowledge before making very weak criticisms ... without knowledge of history nor the Gospel.

My best to all.
 

Kurgan

Kingfisher
Kid Twist said:
samifon said:
Orthodox Christianity is not the true faith. There are a myriad of un-biblical doctrines and practices.

1) The trinity doctrine. The bible clearly states that God, the Father is one. (1 Cor 8:6, 1 Tim 2:5, John 17:1)

2) Using intermediaries. (Praying to Saints, Confessing to a Priest.) (1 Tim 2:5)

3) Warped view of sexuality. Polygamy is good and there are no prohibitions against premarital sex. (2 Samuel 12:8, Leviticus 18)

4) Easter and Christmas are pagan holidays modified for Christianity.
I am here as a resource, given that I am eastern orthodox and am convinced it is the one, true church --- that is, the body of the god-man who is known as Jesus Christ in the English language.

None of the above criticisms are remotely legitimate or convincing to anyone who knows what the gospel (evangelion) is.

First, the gospel of Matthew quotes Jesus of Nazareth commanding us Christians to make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ... and He will be with us until the end of the ages.

Second, the Church is the God of the living, we all pray for one another, anything else misunderstands scripture and what the church is. Thinking the Saints are "dead" when we "live" is breathtakingly silly at best, stupid at worst.

Third, sex outside of the context of marriage is not accepted as proper. Not knowing this is astonishing.

Fourth, and I can explain this further, anything capable of being christianized ... was. One should have more knowledge before making very weak criticisms ... without knowledge of history nor the Gospel.

My best to all.
I find that with the fourth point you mentioned, the ones who attack the Church does not know history that well and just tend to cherry pick whatever fits their views from the Bible.
 
Have protestants ever considered that they come from what we now call the Roman Catholic Church, and as such, can only be rebellious children of said church unless they know the Original Church? This phenomenon is wild to me.
 

infowarrior1

Hummingbird
Kid Twist said:
samifon said:
Orthodox Christianity is not the true faith. There are a myriad of un-biblical doctrines and practices.

1) The trinity doctrine. The bible clearly states that God, the Father is one. (1 Cor 8:6, 1 Tim 2:5, John 17:1)

2) Using intermediaries. (Praying to Saints, Confessing to a Priest.) (1 Tim 2:5)

3) Warped view of sexuality. Polygamy is good and there are no prohibitions against premarital sex. (2 Samuel 12:8, Leviticus 18)

4) Easter and Christmas are pagan holidays modified for Christianity.
I am here as a resource, given that I am eastern orthodox and am convinced it is the one, true church --- that is, the body of the god-man who is known as Jesus Christ in the English language.

None of the above criticisms are remotely legitimate or convincing to anyone who knows what the gospel (evangelion) is.

First, the gospel of Matthew quotes Jesus of Nazareth commanding us Christians to make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ... and He will be with us until the end of the ages.

Second, the Church is the God of the living, we all pray for one another, anything else misunderstands scripture and what the church is. Thinking the Saints are "dead" when we "live" is breathtakingly silly at best, stupid at worst.
Third, sex outside of the context of marriage is not accepted as proper. Not knowing this is astonishing.

Fourth, and I can explain this further, anything capable of being christianized ... was. One should have more knowledge before making very weak criticisms ... without knowledge of history nor the Gospel.

My best to all.
What evidence is there that saints actually hear our requests for prayer? In addition given the number of believers and the fact that they are not omnipresent or omniscient as God.

In a normal human circle I could ask a person to pray for me. But those saints would be receiving thousands every milisecond.
 

infowarrior1

Hummingbird
Kid Twist said:
Have protestants ever considered that they come from what we now call the Roman Catholic Church, and as such, can only be rebellious children of said church unless they know the Original Church? This phenomenon is wild to me.
I think many of them would respond that they have always been the true and original church.
 
What's the consensus on these mega-churches in America with all the dancing and the singing? Like the ones that Joel Osteen preaches at. Are these guys legit Christians or what?
 

infowarrior1

Hummingbird
TigerMandingo said:
What's the consensus on these mega-churches in America with all the dancing and the singing? Like the ones that Joel Osteen preaches at. Are these guys legit Christians or what?
Heresies and abominations that should be extinguished from existence. I always felt that those kinds of places are "wrong" and "creepy".
 
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