What is Orthodox Christianity?

scorpion

Ostrich
Gold Member
Joel Osteen and most megachurch pastors preach a counterfeit gospel. It's basically motivational speaking packaged in a Christian veneer. The message being essentially, "God wants you to be happy! God wants you to be successful! Turn to God and everything in your life will be ok!" This is a very appealing message on the surface, so it's understandable why these "pastors" build such large followings, but it is not in line with the true teachings of Christianity. It's simply another perversion of the faith, no different in effect than the ultra liberals who have been infiltrating and promoting homosexuality in the church for decades. Just a perversion of a different type, one that excuses a lust for the things of the world instead of a lust for flesh.

The reality is that God doesn't want you to be happy, he wants you to be faithful, humble and loving (and paradoxically we must often first become unhappy to become those other things). And God isn't concerned with your worldly possessions at all, but rather encourages you to build up treasures in heaven. And finally, far from everything in this life being ok, we are promised nothing but trial and tribulation, and ultimately death. Properly understood, Christianity is not a system of belief that enriches one's temporal life, but rather girds us to face the unrelenting trials of life while helping us maintain our focus on the eternal existence that awaits us after death.

And this is ultimately why Osteen and other mega-preachers fail so badly as representatives of the true gospel: their messages are almost exclusively focused on making people feel better. But if you actually understand the message of the gospel your first reaction will be to feel much worse, as you begin to understand the nature and ramifications of sin and death. Which is the entire point: realizing the utter hopelessness of your position and willfully embracing Christ as your savior. Osteen-style Christianity is very superficial in this regard, as is most Protestant Christianity these days. They used to preach hellfire and brimstone for a reason. It wasn't just to scare people. It was because that's literally the first and most necessary part of the gospel message. You can't convince people they should accept Christ as savior if you don't first make it very clear what he's saving them from.
 

NoMoreTO

Ostrich
Lets say for instance that Orthodox is the true church as @Kurgan believes. He seems to have some very defensable points.
>> Does that mean that all Orthodox Christians are saved ? There must be bad apples
>> Does that mean that none of the other Christians will be saved? There must be good and devoted

It might be that Orthodox has the most spiritual services or the tightest doctrine, but how is a layman to know except to do his/her absolute best with humility. If we keep following this line, it could also be that Orthodox (or another sect) get saved more often because their teachings are more in line.

My understanding is that the True Church/Body is defined by God:
Those who are saved by God in ordinary times + Those who are Gods Church at time of tribulation (Essentially the same thing).

I struggle to fully wrap my head or heart around the evangelical fervour. How are we supposed to balance searching for God with your heart vs. reading scripture and understanding. It has its power, and maybe I am still on the outside, but you tend to get believers who know very little. It seems to be more of a characteristic of that Church, in which I am sure there are true believers. Consider the following 4 passages, 3 of which point to things beyond faith:

(1) Faith and belief in Jesus Christ: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life" John 3:16

(2) Not Judging: “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." Matthew 7: 1 -2

(3) Following the Law: "22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ - Matthew 7:22-23

(4) Seeking God: “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Matthew 7:7-8
 

debeguiled

Peacock
Gold Member
Kid Twist said:
Have protestants ever considered that they come from what we now call the Roman Catholic Church, and as such, can only be rebellious children of said church unless they know the Original Church? This phenomenon is wild to me.
Original church can be debated.

True church is invisible, existing in each individual heart and its relation to God.

Choosing the most theologically consistent church doesn't guarantee you will be part of the true church.

Failure to distinguish between these two concepts has tripped up a lot of people.

Orthodox Christians included.
 
infowarrior1 said:
Kid Twist said:
Have protestants ever considered that they come from what we now call the Roman Catholic Church, and as such, can only be rebellious children of said church unless they know the Original Church? This phenomenon is wild to me.
I think many of them would respond that they have always been the true and original church.
I'm sure that some would, but what would be their basis? They already derive from the very church they commonly gripe against, or are disgusted by, and they didn't exist until the 16th century, they changed doctrine countless times, cannot discern who has authority over what ... the list goes on and on.
 
debeguiled said:
Kid Twist said:
Have protestants ever considered that they come from what we now call the Roman Catholic Church, and as such, can only be rebellious children of said church unless they know the Original Church? This phenomenon is wild to me.
Original church can be debated.

True church is invisible, existing in each individual heart and its relation to God.

Choosing the most theologically consistent church doesn't guarantee you will be part of the true church.

Failure to distinguish between these two concepts has tripped up a lot of people.

Orthodox Christians included.
The original church will always be debated, of course, that's why we are here.

True church is invisible, existing in each individual heart and its relation to God.
This is your invention, it does not have basis in the any aspect of what is known by all as christianity, neither tradition, history or even the holy scriptures, which the true church decided on as to which are reliable. If you really think about it, it renders the word and concept of church (assembly) as totally meaningless. You are confusing this, sadly, with the concept of salvation, something which is a preoccupation and inserted into every thought of the western scholastic mind.

Choosing the most theologically consistent church doesn't guarantee you will be part of the true church.
Again, terminology is off, rendering the statement meaningless. You are making a salvation statement, and I can tell you what the teaching of the true church is on salvation, but because it is the true church, I cannot tell you that I, for example, will be on the side of the sheep or the goats because I don't make that decision.

Recognizing what the true church is does not necessarily say anything about salvation.

The demons knew Christ was the Son of God. They knew, and know, the truth. But do they apply it in order to live in faithfulness to Him?

You know the answer.
 

debeguiled

Peacock
Gold Member
Kid Twist said:
debeguiled said:
True church is invisible, existing in each individual heart and its relation to God.
This is your invention, it does not have basis in the any aspect of what is known by all as christianity, neither tradition, history or even the holy scriptures, which the true church decided on as to which are reliable. If you really think about it, it renders the word and concept of church (assembly) as totally meaningless. You are confusing this, sadly, with the concept of salvation, something which is a preoccupation and inserted into every thought of the western scholastic mind.
I think you are deep in the weeds on this issue. This kind of nit picking legalism is my chief objection to internet Orthodox Christians.

This kind of debate does nothing to further the aims of Christianity of any kind.

You are wandering into this territory:

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies, arguments about genealogies, quarrels, and fights about the Law. These things are useless and worthless.
The idea that the true church is internal and between God and each person is my invention is extremely odd. It is a concept called 'the body of Christ.' and is widely understood. I figured readers could make the connection on their own.

But you didn't because you are looking for something to argue about.

1 Corinthians 13:
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Your contentious, either/or kind of thinking is anathema to understanding the work of Jesus.

What I wrote doesn't make church meaningless. Christians pray and read scripture and try to find a good community to be a part of. That's what they do.

Yet even so, in every church, there are people who are faking it, or going through the motions, or whatever, and aren't part of the body of Christ, that is, the invisible church, and all that will be revealed eventually.

There are even Bible verses saying that people who don't even believe in Jesus or belong to a church can be part of the invisible church based on what is in their hearts.

Romans 2:14-15:

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
This doesn't mean Christianity is then pointless.

It just means that God knows what is in the heart and we don't.

Recognizing what the true church is does not necessarily say anything about salvation.
Dude, you know I love you but this is goofy.

Salvation is all that matters, but, judging by your line of talk, you'd rather prove your church is the true church than have salvation.

There are billions of people being saved by their faith in Jesus, and they attend Orthodox churches and Catholic ones and non denominational ones, and Evangelical ones, even the snake handling kind, or the Mega Church kind, and there even people who don't believe in Jesus who are being saved.

It is because they follow the main two rules that Samseau listed earlier, and not because they can win arguments on the internet.

Jesus is about love, which is the furthest thing from either/or thinking you could imagine.

Salvation doesn't go to the best debater.

If the Orthodox church is the right one for you or anyone else you will figure that out eventually, and that is fine.

My only point is that the issue of original church, in a worldly sense, is moot.

It is an internet issue. Just another subject to talk about.
 

Samseau

Owl
Gold Member
The idea of a "true" church is itself heretical and forbidden by Jesus, something it seems all hardcore Christians forget about.

Mark 9:38

38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.
Christ foresaw the potential for sectarianism and forbade it, yet it did not stop the Great Schism. Houellebecq says it was all downhill for Western Civilization after that moment :laugh:

Joel Osteen and most megachurch pastors preach a counterfeit gospel.
I think Osteen's case is a bit more complicated than that.

Even if Joel Osteen is a false prophet, he is not against Christ and still performs acts of charity to his followers. Although I agree with you that Osteen focuses too much on wealth and success, I see similar problems in many Orthodox and Catholic Churches that create lavish marble and gold altars, mahogany pews and doors, intricate paintings and stained glass, etc, even if these Churches preach more closely to Christ's teachings than most.

Christ does imply that if you fix your spiritual life, you will be rewarded in this life or the next. So it's not like God cannot reward his followers with wealth or success, its just that it's not God's primary concern.

Matthew 6:31 (Second Chapter of Sermon on the Mount)

31 “So don’t worry about these things, saying, ‘What will we eat? What will we drink? What will we wear?’ 32 These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but your heavenly Father already knows all your needs. 33 Seek the Kingdom of God[e] above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need.
Most have interpreted this passage to imply that God does not care about material things, but still can and does give his followers wealth or success of any kind (fame, women, etc) as a reward to the faithful. But ultimately it's about what you need.

Thus, some people might need the wealth or success so that they may do greater works in His name later in life (see: parable of the talents). Most are given enough, but never too much, as God knows that wealth and success are spiritually toxic for most people. The people who get "enough" to get by form the great bulk of the salt of the earth of God's flock. (The middle class)

The correct message is not to worry about wealth or success. Pray for what you want, but trust that God will give you what you need. And ultimately, I think Osteen and other prosperity gospels come somewhat close to this message, even if he does embellish or lie about the teachings by promising more wealth or success than what God intends to give.

But like those with purple-pill teachings, Osteen's of the world are useful for drawing people more to Christ since there is a huge chance they will read the Bible on their own and discover His true teachings, thereby finding salvation.

Far more destructive are the false prophets that turn out to be pedophiles or other dangerous criminals. Osteen being a bit of a charlatan is less harmful than it is good, at least it seems that way and I hope it is. So I do not judge him.
 

loremipsum

Kingfisher
scorpion said:
And finally, far from everything in this life being ok, we are promised nothing but trial and tribulation, and ultimately death. Properly understood, Christianity is not a system of belief that enriches one's temporal life, but rather girds us to face the unrelenting trials of life while helping us maintain our focus on the eternal existence that awaits us after death.
This is what I got from my latest read of new testament as well.
Finding out that the world is evil and there is a malevolent ruler in this world that hates you and does everything it can to destroy your soul is not something that gives you wealth and material power.
I don't know where the idea that God gives you money and cars like some magick sigil came from, but it's ingrained in people's minds.
 

Mage

 
debeguiled you are under a lot of false assumptions

debeguiled said:
I have attended many services in Protestant and Evangelical churches and they all understand this perfectly well.
Protestants and Evangelicals are the same thing. Difference is just rhetorical. There are only three types of Christians : Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant. Maybe you can add to that count some extinct types like Gnostic, to which you once claimed to belong. But whether Gnostic are other type of Christians or a completly different thing is up to debate as there were many types of Gnostics as well.

It seems you are not the only guy who claim he is not an Orthodox, Catholic or a Protestant, but still a Christian. Spectrumwalker implied similarly. You are all wrong trough. You are all clueless protestants.


debeguiled said:
The once saved always saved types are no different from the Catholics who sin with impunity because they have the sacrament of confession.
I have lived my whole life among Catholics and no serious Catholic believes and behaves that way. It is just one slanders and excuses protestants come up with all the time without thorough examination. The same with Protestant claims that Catholics or Orthodox worship Mary as God. They do not.

Catholics and Orthodox are religions with true spirituality and holy mystery in them, but that makes them not easily understandable for the rational mind untempered in love, asceticism and holy communion of saints. Protestantism is just trying to put these larger then human mind categories in a more compact format, so that anyone could understand. But in the process to much gets chopped off, especially the true holy mysteries. It's Procrustean bed. Protestantism is atheism beta version, an attempt to get rid of all things that stand above reason, but are valid in spiritual practitioners experience.
 

debeguiled

Peacock
Gold Member
I am happy to be done with debating this. Just had a couple of things to say and they are said.

Mage showing up for nostalgia's sake to show me my errors seems like a sign from God.

I will follow it.
 

Mage

 
infowarrior1 said:
What evidence is there that saints actually hear our requests for prayer? In addition given the number of believers and the fact that they are not omnipresent or omniscient as God.

In a normal human circle I could ask a person to pray for me. But those saints would be receiving thousands every milisecond.
What evidence is there that God actually hears our requests for prayer?

First you doubt in saints then you doubt in God. Protestantism is Atheism beta version.

You can only check this out in your personal experience.

Protestant Heaven is a lonely place. Only you and God to talk to. Silly and lonely.

Catholics and Orthodox have retained the Pagan sense to understand that all souls are connected and ascend towards God together. We help each other in this path by advice, support and prayer. There is no death so your prayers are always heard.

The thing is that Brahman is so high that if he were to answer prayers directly we would never see it as his thoughts are not our thoughts and our minds are so different that we would never recognize their fulfillment. Therefore there exists whole layers and hierarchies of lesser gods, angels and saints and peers to pass on divine fulfillment to humans in a more comprehensible and immediate format. We are not really the last chain in this hierarchy and must respect lower lifeforms, such as animals as well and our attitude towards them must not be exploitative.
 

Mage

 
debeguiled said:
I am happy to be done with debating this. Just had a couple of things to say and they are said.

Mage showing up for nostalgia's sake to show me my errors seems like a sign from God.

I will follow it.
Understanding that there is no one "true Christian church", will be your first step in understanding that there is no one "true God's religion". Just give it some time and love.

This might sound horrifying for a dogmatist who hears in that a total exit from Christianity in that, or it might sound as a blessing for a mystic who hears in that ascension above boundaries drawn by human material mind.
 
debeguiled said:
Kid Twist said:
debeguiled said:
True church is invisible, existing in each individual heart and its relation to God.
This is your invention, it does not have basis in the any aspect of what is known by all as christianity, neither tradition, history or even the holy scriptures, which the true church decided on as to which are reliable. If you really think about it, it renders the word and concept of church (assembly) as totally meaningless. You are confusing this, sadly, with the concept of salvation, something which is a preoccupation and inserted into every thought of the western scholastic mind.
I think you are deep in the weeds on this issue. This kind of nit picking legalism is my chief objection to internet Orthodox Christians.

This kind of debate does nothing to further the aims of Christianity of any kind.

You are wandering into this territory:

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies, arguments about genealogies, quarrels, and fights about the Law. These things are useless and worthless.
The idea that the true church is internal and between God and each person is my invention is extremely odd. It is a concept called 'the body of Christ.' and is widely understood. I figured readers could make the connection on their own.

But you didn't because you are looking for something to argue about.

1 Corinthians 13:
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Your contentious, either/or kind of thinking is anathema to understanding the work of Jesus.

What I wrote doesn't make church meaningless. Christians pray and read scripture and try to find a good community to be a part of. That's what they do.

Yet even so, in every church, there are people who are faking it, or going through the motions, or whatever, and aren't part of the body of Christ, that is, the invisible church, and all that will be revealed eventually.

There are even Bible verses saying that people who don't even believe in Jesus or belong to a church can be part of the invisible church based on what is in their hearts.

Romans 2:14-15:

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
This doesn't mean Christianity is then pointless.

It just means that God knows what is in the heart and we don't.

Recognizing what the true church is does not necessarily say anything about salvation.
Dude, you know I love you but this is goofy.

Salvation is all that matters, but, judging by your line of talk, you'd rather prove your church is the true church than have salvation.

There are billions of people being saved by their faith in Jesus, and they attend Orthodox churches and Catholic ones and non denominational ones, and Evangelical ones, even the snake handling kind, or the Mega Church kind, and there even people who don't believe in Jesus who are being saved.

It is because they follow the main two rules that Samseau listed earlier, and not because they can win arguments on the internet.

Jesus is about love, which is the furthest thing from either/or thinking you could imagine.

Salvation doesn't go to the best debater.

If the Orthodox church is the right one for you or anyone else you will figure that out eventually, and that is fine.

My only point is that the issue of original church, in a worldly sense, is moot.

It is an internet issue. Just another subject to talk about.
You keep going on and on about salvation and I don't disagree with you, but you also state that I am saying or stating or arguing things I"m not. I'm trying to make that clear.

The original church is a real, historical thing that exists. It determined what the scriptures are, it rightly teaches what the scriptures mean.

This "right one for you" gobble-dy guk is the thing out of modern thought or feminism.

Nothing I'm doing is "nitpicking legalism" at all, nor winning arguments, etc. It's correctly stating what the "church" is.

Anyone can be "saved" and we don't know for certain who these will be, though some we can be confident of. I don't know why you keep harping on that.

There's a reason why the Mormons, or Osteen, or gay Bishop 21st century rainbow worshipers aren't the church.

Why you are mad at me that you go off on tangents clarifying such a thing, is beyond me.

If people didn't choose their own ways (heresy) we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The point is that if you are aware of proper teaching, isn't that better than errant teaching? Of course the answer is yes. Would you knowingly drink tainted water as opposed to purified? Of course, not. Will that particular tainted water kill you? Maybe, maybe not.

It's not that hard to understand. St. Paul also said, [19] "for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized."

Anyone seeking the truth should want it from the original source, if available, like anything we humans do. And it is available.
 
Mage said:
debeguiled said:
I am happy to be done with debating this. Just had a couple of things to say and they are said.

Mage showing up for nostalgia's sake to show me my errors seems like a sign from God.

I will follow it.
Understanding that there is no one "true Christian church", will be your first step in understanding that there is no one "true God's religion". Just give it some time and love.

This might sound horrifying for a dogmatist who hears in that a total exit from Christianity in that, or it might sound as a blessing for a mystic who hears in that ascension above boundaries drawn by human material mind.
Perfect timing to support my points, too. Thanks Mage. Postmodern thought always helps since it is void of anything real or principled.
 

infowarrior1

Hummingbird
Mage said:
infowarrior1 said:
What evidence is there that saints actually hear our requests for prayer? In addition given the number of believers and the fact that they are not omnipresent or omniscient as God.

In a normal human circle I could ask a person to pray for me. But those saints would be receiving thousands every milisecond.
What evidence is there that God actually hears our requests for prayer?

First you doubt in saints then you doubt in God. Protestantism is Atheism beta version.

You can only check this out in your personal experience.

Protestant Heaven is a lonely place. Only you and God to talk to. Silly and lonely.

Catholics and Orthodox have retained the Pagan sense to understand that all souls are connected and ascend towards God together. We help each other in this path by advice, support and prayer. There is no death so your prayers are always heard.

The thing is that Brahman is so high that if he were to answer prayers directly we would never see it as his thoughts are not our thoughts and our minds are so different that we would never recognize their fulfillment. Therefore there exists whole layers and hierarchies of lesser gods, angels and saints and peers to pass on divine fulfillment to humans in a more comprehensible and immediate format. We are not really the last chain in this hierarchy and must respect lower lifeforms, such as animals as well and our attitude towards them must not be exploitative.
What evidence is sufficient?

Plus my beliefs were retained after my original doubt in God. Due to the fact that I am convinced that Jesus rose from the dead and therefore is who he claims he is. And the Kalam Cosmological Argument(backed by much evidence for fine turning as well as the argument from Idealism as put forward by Inspiring Philosophy backed by evidence from quantum physics.
 

debeguiled

Peacock
Gold Member
Kid Twist said:
Why you are mad at me that you go off on tangents clarifying such a thing, is beyond me.
Me mad bruh?

I'm just giving you a heads up.

Believing you have a superior connection to Jesus because you are in the "original church" is spiritually akin to believing you are God's chosen because you are a descendant of Abraham.

There is room for many denominations.

One thing all humans have in common is the ability to get things wrong while thinking they are the only ones who have it right.

This seems to be a fundamental principle of human cognition.

Even in the Orthodox church.
 
debeguiled said:
Kid Twist said:
Why you are mad at me that you go off on tangents clarifying such a thing, is beyond me.
Me mad bruh?

I'm just giving you a heads up.

Believing you have a superior connection to Jesus because you are in the "original church" is spiritually akin to believing you are God's chosen because you are a descendant of Abraham.
I never said that, nor believe that. You haven't stayed on the topic at hand in any of your responses to my points. Again, I am merely stating what the CHURCH is, and why it matters (it is the most reliable guide). Others that aren't the church aren't as reliable. I don't know why that's controversial --- it's a statement of fact and perfectly logical.

There is room for many denominations.

One thing all humans have in common is the ability to get things wrong while thinking they are the only ones who have it right.

This seems to be a fundamental principle of human cognition.

Even in the Orthodox church.
There's room for paganism, witchcraft, and child sacrifice, too. You would call those wrong, so you make no point here.

There are plenty of "eastern orthodox" people (they claim, they were baptized at xyz, they say xyz) who get many things wrong. The Church points people to the Word, though. And unlike western christianity, it only makes very few, yet critical dogmatic claims, so built into the original church is the flexibility of spiritual fathers, guidance, discernment understanding, etc.

As opposed to sola scriptura, mental assent, inerrant "bible" and all other manner of bad thinking and teaching that leads to your actual complaint.
 

ilostabet

Pelican
I used to be really into these discussions but now denominational fights remind me of 'who is white' threads. We're in such a dire state that it's pointless to argue this. Love your brother. Find a congregation of non-pozzed christians and support that community. We are in no position to be nitpicky.
 

debeguiled

Peacock
Gold Member
Okay. We'll try it from another angle.

Take this girl.


She had a powerful direct experience of Jesus. You can see it in how she talks about him.

I don't know what denominations she is, but it isn't Orthodox.

I am certain you would destroy her in a theological argument.

But her faith just jumps off the screen. This girl gets it in a direct, spiritual sense.

She is a Christian because she has experienced Jesus, and she is all in.

She will keep pushing and growing and learning to strengthen that relationship.

Next to faith and love like that, arguments about specific denominations and practices come across like pointy elbow talk.

But you would see her just as a bad thinker.
 

Mage

 
debeguiled said:
People like these ( everyone who has spent time in Christianity or another religion has seen a ton of them) just prove that gullible people are easily impressed and overwhelmed.

Just as easy as being converted to her current beliefs she could have fallen to some suicide death cult or something like Scientology or Mormonism or Islam or whatever.

These are people, usually from bad parents with no self control mechanisms installed in them in childhood. Alcoholics, drug users, depressed people, gambling addicts, sluts and similar. When they encounter a religion (any religion, the first thing that they hit their head on strong enough or from the right angle) and discover that there is a rule system and/or a community that can guide them out of the mess they are into they stick into it and remain faithful to it because they fear that anything else will lead them to their previous bad self-destructive habits.

It's good for these simple people that they find their way out of their mess. All religions that improve peoples lives like that have right to exist and carry at least a spark of the Truth.

But intellectual people with a gift of philosophical thought shouldn't just take these people as best examples. If God has gifted you with strong mind then you cannot just ignore it. You must find a place where your intellect is reconciled with your heart and everything fits together. This can be a never-ending process . To stop and say that you have find the one Truth and need not think and search any more is a mistake. At the same time you must practice the truths you have already found and that is where faith comes in to actually find strength and fallow the best moral and spiritual things you have understood to be worth practicing and to believe they are not just abstractions but also touch you on a personal level.

I have never had any serious addictions or self-destructive habits, so I cannot relate to these people. I want to improve my personality and life and surroundings even more and I use my mind to find the best way. I am not just sticking to the first way that I stumbled upon, because I do not fear that I will become a self destructive person if I am left on my own.
 
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