When people say being a nice guy is bad, what do they mean?

[LoveBug]

I think it means just being an unauthentic people pleaser

Otherwise, a woman doesn’t like a genial guy with integrity and needs to be abused in some way, the problem is her. She’s got issues.

I consider myself a nice guy, and a listener/caretaker in a relationship. That doesn’t mean that I take any disrespect or don’t have ultra high standards. The women who are attracted to outright A-holes are women I don’t want to be around. I consider them wrong

 

[RV_p]

'Nice guy' is a meta word. It is like 'creep'. Nobody knows what it means, but at the same time everyone does and uses it all the time.

Basically, it is a meme.

 

[cmm]

nice guy is a highly contextual term like asshole, bad boy, creep - meaning can differ wildly and is not always used negatively. that being said, u asked what it means when someone specifically says being a nice guy is a bad thing, so that narrows the context down to undesirable traits they equate "nice guy" with and that they see in the person

for example, there are some personality traits that are almost universally undesired, boringness and/or unattractiveness (as perceived by the user of the term) being examples, among other traits. any combination of these traits might or might not be what theyre referring to

 

[Hypno]

Even if you're a good looking "nice" guy then lasting attraction will dry up when a woman finally senses that she cannot commit your good graces to herself primarily.

In biological terms she's not interested in a guy that will "waste" an unreasonable amount of resources on people that aren't her or her kids. Husbands and fathers will have experienced this female drive in even the most characteristically benevolent wife from time to time.

John from down the road helps you out several times but when the time comes to return the favor she starts asking why he can't sort his own problems out.

This is unfortunately a female drive for which there is no simple solution and as women gain more power in society the civilised reciprocal behaviour of men required to keep society running smoothly is increasingly maligned in the relationship market.

When a woman says she wants a nice guy what she means is she wants a guy that will be nice to her but be ready to slit the throat of the guy who cut her off when he merged on to the freeway.

This is a good post as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough.

Even once you've selected a particular woman - she has beat out the competition - you will get farther by making her earn things and not being nice. In fact, being a bit unkind will stoke desire more than kindness. Its part of what makes them female.

Also, part of what makes someone a nice guy is that he puts other people first. But from an evolutionary perspective, women want a mate who puts himself and his family first. The irony is if you put yourself first before her, it only makes her want you more. So the opposite of being a nice guy is not being a bad guy, but simply being forceful enough to put your own interests first and demand that they are satisfied. This attitude can be manifest in a 1,000 different ways. Do you ask her where she wants to eat, or tell her that you are going to eat at X and you expect her to join you. When the host seats you, do you accept the table or do you say no, we want that table over there. When she texts at dinner, do you wait for her to finish or do you call her out for her rude behaviour. Thrown in some dominance to take it to another level - if you don't put that phone away, I'm going to have to bend you over my knee and give you some spankings right here in the restaurant.

None of those things require you to lose your moral compass, although they can border on narcissism. But that is what women find attractive.

 

[d'Aversa]

 

[Sensei Creation]

The average women's ideal mate is combination of both.

They DO want the nice guy who listens to what they say and is attentive etc etc

The problem is most self described nice guys are orbitors.

They're too afraid to directly ask the girl out. Which subconsciously women take as a show of weakness. Which it is.

Secondly when they do muster the courage to ask the girl out, if ever, they put the girl on a pedestal. They don't push/pull, they don't tease, they're scared to sexualise the conversation, they don't make the girl FEEL anything. The interactions that they are supposed to be LEADING are timid, shy, dull and one dimensional.

How does the average nice guy treat his friends ? He teases them, he laughs and jokes with them, if they disrespect him he calls them out on it.

Put that same nice guy on a date with an attractive women and he's completely different. He becomes self consious, scared of saying something that will get taken the wrong way, fails shit tests left right and center. Treats her like a princess by validating her appearance " you look so beautiful " etc etc etc

Believe it or not, some of them are even scared to go for the kiss !!

I know because I used to be one of those guys.

Subconsciously the women realises, if your treating me like a princess that must mean you think I'm above you.

Women want to be with someone they see as equal value or higher.

"Women don't like nice guys" is wrong.

They do like nice guys, most natural alphas are nice guys.

The difference is the alphas communicate to the women, through conversation, body language and actions, that they see themselves as higher or equal value than them.

An alpha on that same date isn't going to be fixated on a women's apperence. He's used to being around attractive women that's a non factor. He's going to be comfortable enough to sexualise the conversation, or tease her about something. Because if she doesn't like it so what ? He has abundance mentality, the next one is around the corner.

The niceness isn't the differeciating factor. Women want nice guys.

Very few woman want someone who doesn't make them laugh, has no humour, takes themselves too seriously, who straight up disrespects them verbally or generally is a nasty person.

So be a nice guy, just don't be a "nice guy".

 

[AneroidOcean]

The average women's ideal mate is combination of both.

They DO want the nice guy who listens to what they say and is attentive etc etc

<SNIP SNIP SNIP>

The niceness isn't the differeciating factor. Women want nice guys.

Very few woman want someone who doesn't make them laugh, has no humour, takes themselves too seriously, who straight up disrespects them verbally or generally is a nasty person.

So be a nice guy, just don't be a "nice guy".

WRONG!

They do NOT want a nice guy. They just don't want a guy with ZERO niceness in him (although some broken women will still go for this)

Very few woman want someone who doesn't make them laugh, has no humour, takes themselves too seriously, who straight up disrespects them verbally or generally is a nasty person.

WRONG!

The above statement is NOT the antithesis of a nice guy. A guy who is not a "nice guy" can still have humor and not take themselves crazy seriously. Just like a guy who is not a "nice guy" can be a rough/rude person, very direct, very unapologetic and still be VERY attractive to women.

You are fundamentally misunderstanding what women mean when they want a nice guy. They want a decent guy, an INTERESTING guy, not a doormat/people pleaser.

There's a huge divide between doormat/people pleaser and what women are attracted to. Then there's a far smaller divide between that and a complete asshole/psychopath.

You can't really be a "nice guy" putting yourself first. It doesn't mean you have to be a psychopath, but you have to be FAR from a nice guy to truly put yourself first.

 

[Sensei Creation]

^ You did not pick up on the nuance in my statement and then added on statements that I did not state.

When did I say you shouldn't put yourself first ?

In terms of what the majority of women want, it's not amice guy but it's also not a bad guy. It's a nice guy.

Many guys make that mistake. As I did when I first learnt game.

That's the nuance in my original statement that you snipped out in order to make a point noone was arguing against.

That being said I do agree with the majority of your statement.

 

[LoveBug]

I don’t understand why you can’t be nice and put yourself first either... For instance, I have super high standards for the women I engage with (unicorn for LTR, and in the past low notch/amiable/accessorizing girls only for STR), and the first iota of nonsense and she is out the door. That’s not to say that when I find the right girls I’m not a chill, no drama, empathetic and otherwise nice guy.

I think what women are attracted to is self assurance, be it in nice guys or a holes, is what it boils down to. Nice guys with assurance aren’t afraid to unapologetically pursue what they want etc as well. A lot of faux “nice guys” are just pusses who have no self confidence so they come off as doormats, but may or may not be truly nice at their core.

Women IMO are attracted to the gamut of self assured guys, nice to a hole, but I’ll say it again, the ones attracted to a-holes are IMO the ones with issues who are less likely to engage in quality relations anyways

 

[Stirfry]

^^^Agree.

I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately because over the past few years since my separation and some bad experiences with online dating I’ve become more selfish with my time and attention and more choosy about what I want in a woman. Previously, I would fall all over myself trying to show off to or please a woman probably like a lot of us (what we would call “the nice guy”). I’m 52 now, dating women close to my age, and I’m tired of jumping through hoops for mediocre snatch. After sampling what’s out there, I realized how they overrated themselves and switched to “no, I can’t go with you to see Laurie Anderson in concert because I want to watch the ballgame” or “I’m tired and have to be up early for work tomorrow” or whatever (I’ve found that it’s even better not to offer an excuse at all). I was certain that with too many “nos” the girl would eventually break up with me, but accepted that strong possibility because none of these girls were worth it- After two years of online dating, I didn’t care anymore.

Lo and behold, it was quite the opposite. Since I’ve become an ‘asshole’ who says no and doesn’t dole out attention any more, women are very attracted to me. I don’t want to get into examples and it’s not a case of bragging because I didn’t “take advantage” of most of it. To me, it’s more like an experiment. Now, after all this time trying to please, when I no longer give a shit, suddenly they are attracted to me? Why?

Well, the answer is in the question itself. I don’t give a shit. Put simply, being aloof, being cool, not giving them the attention they crave, and acting like you have something going on aside from them is what they want (even moreso than looks- a whole other discussion but I’m pretty average looking and it doesn’t matter much). And this is what many guys see as being an asshole. Admittedly, sometimes those guys, because they are directed and have goals, can seem to be assholes, and some can be a little brusque, but they aren’t bad people.

Women don’t want pushovers, they don’t want a doormat, they don’t want all the things that we consider characteristics of “nice guys.” The only real asshole is the obsequious, oleaginous guy who builds his life around one particular woman and his only goal during the day is to please her. How could you have respect for someone like that?

It makes a lot of sense because it reminds me of the one friend that was in your group when you were a kid who was just so needy and would do anything for approval. Everyone hated this person, right? He was the last one picked in any sport and the last called for any activity (or often not called at all- he would just tag along with someone else and show up). We all know a guy like that maybe some of us have been that guy and it makes total sense. Its an ingratiation strategy that winds up being repulsive to both men and women alike.

And yes- A woman who is very specifically attracted to real assholes, abusive guys, guys who cheat on them, etc. have many more problems than just their sexual partners.