Which group is responsible for the predicament that Western Civilization finds itself

Which group is responsible for the current predicament Western Civilization finds itself

  • (((The usual suspects))

    Votes: 51 43.2%
  • Women

    Votes: 7 5.9%
  • Christianity

    Votes: 6 5.1%
  • Insecure and weak Beta and Gamma males posing as alphas

    Votes: 7 5.9%
  • The elites (non (((usual suspects)))) who have fallen into decadence

    Votes: 16 13.6%
  • Leftists and leftist allies

    Votes: 21 17.8%
  • Degenerate alpha males who misuse their gifts

    Votes: 2 1.7%
  • Red-pilled men (ourselves) because we have forgotten the lessons of history

    Votes: 8 6.8%

  • Total voters
    118

Sp5

 
Banned
debeguiled said:
There are smart, experienced people who see a concerted effort by a small group of elites as the explanation for our decline, and there are smart, experienced people who think incompetence and human nature is enough to account for it.

If there is an elite cabal manipulating us, they aren't going to say so or provide the evidence for it, so we are left with speculation, ultimately.

I kind of think both sides are right.

People are greedy and short sighted enough to screw up a good thing, and with technology to speed everything up, it could just be an ignorant disaster.

On the other hand, when I see thing like the rise of tranny rights, and states like North Carolina getting boycotted by everyone for not letting men into women's bathrooms, or trannies suddenly competing in female sports, even in high schools, presented as a fait accompli, it's hard not to think there is a hidden, motivated, well funded, politically connected group manipulating things.



I lean towards the idea of the Atlanticists as put forth in Quigley's "Tragedy and Hope," running things in the background, or at least influencing things with a long view. I also think that the heads of the world powers and businesses are like any monopoly, pooling their resources and strategizing for mutual gain, with people like the Jewish influence groups, the feminists, and all that simply allowed to do their thing as long as it aligns for the most part with the goals of the elites.

A lot of the writing and videos of Jay Dyer on these subjects make sense to me, though I don' t necessarily think it is all coherent or as planned as it has been described.

The spiritual angle can't be dismissed either, and if you believe in spiritual forces for good or evil, it might well be malevolent spiritual entities influencing people in power, letting them think they are the smart ones pursuing their own ends. This could also explain the seemingly coordinated changes that appear to be cropping up in society.

Come on 911, let's hear your summarized theory. No need to trash Sp5. This is an interesting discussion.


I definitely think elites are involved, my own ideas suggests that, but there is more than one elite.

Quigley was writing 50 years ago, most of that old Eastern Establishment has been washed away or diminished in relative power. We are not in the days of the Dulles brothers, John McCloy, Robert Taft, and Henry Cabot Lodge anymore.

The late 60s and 70s changed things a lot. Things are more open to the public and more subject to public politics. There are now multiple "think-tanks" representing multiple interests pushing their agendas in Washington. There's a lot more than the CFR now.

Heritage, AEI, Brookings, Hudson, Center for American Progress, Center for New American Security, Cato etc. All with distinct sources of funding and distinct points of view, all supply staffers to Congress and the Executive.

Tech bros in the Pacific Northwest and oil guys in Texas are "elites" but have different cultural and economic objectives. There are "elites" in retail, academia, medicine, finance, all competing or cooperating.

There's no Central Committee deciding things.
 

Lunostrelki

Kingfisher
RE: Which group is responsible for the predicament ...

I was tempted to vote "leftists," but ultimately didn't choose anything because I don't think any of the options really fit the bill.

The underlying reason why things are as bad as they are now is because the means of production and distribution of goods underwent massive changes in the last 200 years, alienating people from their traditional paradigms. The elites, Jews, feminists, leftists, whatever group you want to single out, they and their actions are only manifestations of those greater societal and economic shifts.

It's ironic that the sickest degeneracies like homosexuality, transgenderism, militant feminism, and so on arose in the free, democratic West in the age of complete consumerism and commercialism. Meanwhile, in the communist totalitarian East, the worst they generally got was a few abortive free sex movements before the "red emperors" Stalin and Mao imposed largely traditional roles on the family, used traditional artistic mediums in their propaganda, and the like. Of course they also had loads of mass murder, state terror, and famine, so this is not to claim they were any better.

This leads me to think that the march to degeneracy and destruction is at least as much an unconscious process, driven by greed and capital, as it is the result of willful malice inflicted by hateful groups upon traditional society. The thing is, the evil, hateful people always existed. If you look at the ancient rulers and conquerers, few of them were good people by any normal moral standard. The barbaric anti-social rebels, the devil-worshippers, they were present throughout history. But the character of life back then was totally different. A lot of things we have lost today, such as the concepts of male responsibility and female chastity, or that art should be beautiful and not monstrous, were simply common sense and didn't even need mentioning. Industrialization and its fruits made it possible for the minority of degenerates and sickos to normalize their evil.

Once the wicked got into power, they used mass media and other fruits of technology to impose their will upon the rest of the population and present it as progress. In Russia 100 years ago they had Lenin, who realized that the masses would not develop revolution on their won and needed to be herded into it by a brutal vanguard Communist Party. In the West we have similar people — they are not violent revolutionaries but evil figures in the realms of finance, industry, popular culture, and so on. In the past, their insane influence could never so great as it is now, because back then nature and the limits of human technology dictated that such insanities like gay marriage, transgenderism, or "I don't need a man" feminism would have gone extinct quickly if they ever appeared.

In this light, I think our culture's fixation on Hitler is interesting. The Nazis represented a fanatical and direct attempt, using the most brutal mechanisms of both communism and capitalism, to consciously impose their vision of an idealized traditional civilization upon Europe. The way that Hitler and his henchmen wielded power with naked purpose is almost the exact opposite of how power is exercised by the elites of today, snaking insidiously towards a dark objective camouflaged by layers upon layers of laws, media narrative-shaping, educational paradigms, and the like.

This contrast makes conservatives tingle with fantasy and a little bit of subconscious envy, and it makes progressive elites shudder with the ancient fear of what might happen if someone ever worked up the same do-or-die resolve that Hitler had, and got enough people to follow him. This may have been what they were really thinking when they came up with the slogan "Never Again" — judging from post WWII history, preventing other mass murders was probably the least of their concerns.
 

MrLemon

 
Banned
I think the concept of Satan is actually pretty useful here.

It's hard to point to individuals and say "they are intentionally trying to destroy what is good about society" because so often, individual human beings simply aren't intellient or self-aware enough to understand their own behavior. Society has a larger "mind" which manifests itself in the collective actions of millions of imperfect and blind people.

Leftists are entirely insane. Gays and Trannies are self-destructive and want to tear down all that is true and healthy. But you will never get the individuals to admit that or see it, because all they see in their life is their own little bubble of reality which extends about 30 feet out and no more. they are too busy living some trauma or weird failure compensation script.

I know a lot of left wingers who are good friends. They firmly, religiously believe that Orange Man Evil. They are deluded. In some cases they are outright ignorant. I talk to them about family, children, travel, and they are wonderful friends. When Orange Man comes up, they become insane.

Satan is a very useful concept here. Satan is the collective movement of millions of fucked-up people, who as a group, trend towards evil. Group mind. Very dangerous and powerful and must be fought with our last breath. But I try not to hate the individuals. Most of them are sheep who have wandered astray.

There are clearly leaders of those evil flocks who are outright evil. Those you don't negotiate with.
 

Kid Twist

 
Banned
Foolsgo1d said:
but I have a different view, plot your time and observe. I believe they have grown drunk on their own power and status and we are in a time of Political Entropy.

I am persuaded this is accurate but what are you really saying here, Fools?
 


Black pilled puts forward a hypothesis that the elites are just selectively breeding us proles in order to try and create a future population that is obedient, docile, stupid, and unable to threaten their supremacy. In the same process as artificial selection in domestication, the people whom the elites see as a threat are presented with an endless stream of propaganda encouraging them not to reproduce, while the preferred phenotypes of humanity are given welfare subsidies to encourage reproduction.

For a good example of this look at Asians: here you've got a group of high-IQ low-T conformists. They've already been handily bred by their own civilizations into the perfect professional caste that won't threaten the elite caste. So you don't see a lot of pro tranny propaganda featuring asians, despite the historic prevalence of ladyboys or whatever perverted shit they've got going on in SE Asia. You also don't see every single asian woman paired up with a big black bull in advertising and tv shows. Asian fathers aren't the ones portrayed in the Gillette ad lecturing their children not to have a tussle in the backyard.

Comparatively whites are prone to getting political, or getting paranoid and moving into a rural area to start a militia. I don't mean to be derisive about this, half the shit I watch on youtube is survivalist stuff. Breeding all that liberty crap out of the white population is why we're being fed this endless stream of propaganda. That's why young guys are such gender-confused pansies these days, they've had a whole K-12 education pathologizing everything they do. And it's selecting for the bugman phenotype: premature baldness, tendency to gape the mouth, lisping effete voices, skinnyfat builds. Same as how wolves get floppy ears and big eyes when they get bred into dogs. If we could understand wolves, we'd probably hear them howling "FAG!" when they see a dog.
 

Thomas More

Crow
Protestant
I think it's the top level bankers. Many are Jews, but not all, just as all Jews are not bankers. It's a Venn diagram situation.

Anyway, the elite bankers want everyone on the planet to be debt slaves, and this is best done by encouraging a decadent, anti-family, maximum government society full of broken families and broken people.
 

Mage

 
Banned
The correct answer is Christianity. Knights Templar and Jesuits were the first secret societies with a hidden agenda. Everyone else - the Masons, the (((usual suspects))), the socialists and others made their lodges based on their template.

Even before these organizations, Christianity destroyed the Pagan wisdom that showed how each individual can connect to the divine directly and installed a universal cult of priesthood. From this point on nearly all the people are dependent on "teachers" and "scriptures" to understand what is true and what is not and are incapable of beholding the truth on their own by uniting with God/nature. This was the first step needed to make the world a fertile ground for any further form of subversion including feminism, leftism, homosexuality, socialism, credit, drugs et cetera.

Today Christianity plays a role of controlled opposition.
 

questor70

 
Banned
This poll went in the usual direction. I keep saying that prosperity breeds decadence but that doesn't offer a convenient scapegoat and feels a bit too fatalistic, but that is the truth, whether it's the last days of Rome or where we are today in the West. Prosperity brings about its own destruction. Human society evolved to deal with scarcity, not surplus.
 

MrLemon

 
Banned
Mage said:
The correct answer is Christianity. Knights Templar and Jesuits were the first secret societies with a hidden agenda. Everyone else - the Masons, the (((usual suspects))), the socialists and others made their lodges based on their template.

Even before these organizations, Christianity destroyed the Pagan wisdom that showed how each individual can connect to the divine directly and installed a universal cult of priesthood. From this point on nearly all the people are dependent on "teachers" and "scriptures" to understand what is true and what is not and are incapable of beholding the truth on their own by uniting with God/nature. This was the first step needed to make the world a fertile ground for any further form of subversion including feminism, leftism, homosexuality, socialism, credit, drugs et cetera.

Today Christianity plays a role of controlled opposition.

The correct answer is "feminist women".

Every other group, while they may be evil, can be controlled or counteracted. Only witches - the handmaidens of Satan - can truly subvert a society. That's why they used to burn them.
 

NoMoreTO

Hummingbird
Catholic
^^ Feminists can be controlled bro! All their freedom is what we give them.

Degenerate alpha males who misuse their gifts - as much as I didn't vote for this, Its starting to sink in.
- They are the ones who allowed the (((usual suspects))) in
- They didn't take their rightful place, they just slayed women and stacked cash, so our leaders are betas and gammas
- The same can be said for 'elites who aren't (them), these could be alphas but I think they are to blame for their greed.

When we place to much power into money, and we don't have a masculine society, and let women control so much, I am not sure an alpha will always rises to the top. Not all Alphas are women charmers as we think of in the dating sphere, they are primarily leaders of men. And the bishes just like that and follow along.
 

MrLemon

 
Banned
NoMoreTO said:
^^ Feminists can be controlled bro! All their freedom is what we give them.

Degenerate alpha males who misuse their gifts - as much as I didn't vote for this, Its starting to sink in.
- They are the ones who allowed the (((usual suspects))) in
- They didn't take their rightful place, they just slayed women and stacked cash, so our leaders are betas and gammas
- The same can be said for 'elites who aren't (them), these could be alphas but I think they are to blame for their greed.

When we place to much power into money, and we don't have a masculine society, and let women control so much, I am not sure an alpha will always rises to the top. Not all Alphas are women charmers as we think of in the dating sphere, they are primarily leaders of men. And the bishes just like that and follow along.

Young guys *always* think they can control lesbians/Feminists -- big talk about 'alphas" and "gammas" -- then a few years later, you see those same guys being led on a collar by some dyke.
 

NoMoreTO

Hummingbird
Catholic
MrLemon said:
NoMoreTO said:
^^ Feminists can be controlled bro! All their freedom is what we give them.

Degenerate alpha males who misuse their gifts - as much as I didn't vote for this, Its starting to sink in.
- They are the ones who allowed the (((usual suspects))) in
- They didn't take their rightful place, they just slayed women and stacked cash, so our leaders are betas and gammas
- The same can be said for 'elites who aren't (them), these could be alphas but I think they are to blame for their greed.

When we place to much power into money, and we don't have a masculine society, and let women control so much, I am not sure an alpha will always rises to the top. Not all Alphas are women charmers as we think of in the dating sphere, they are primarily leaders of men. And the bishes just like that and follow along.

Young guys *always* think they can control lesbians/Feminists -- big talk about 'alphas" and "gammas" -- then a few years later, you see those same guys being led on a collar by some dyke.

I don't get what you're driving at, can you explain?
 

Kid Twist

 
Banned
Mage said:
The correct answer is Christianity. Knights Templar and Jesuits were the first secret societies with a hidden agenda. Everyone else - the Masons, the (((usual suspects))), the socialists and others made their lodges based on their template.

Even before these organizations, Christianity destroyed the Pagan wisdom that showed how each individual can connect to the divine directly and installed a universal cult of priesthood. From this point on nearly all the people are dependent on "teachers" and "scriptures" to understand what is true and what is not and are incapable of beholding the truth on their own by uniting with God/nature. This was the first step needed to make the world a fertile ground for any further form of subversion including feminism, leftism, homosexuality, socialism, credit, drugs et cetera.

Today Christianity plays a role of controlled opposition.

Not this again. The pagan guy prefers the created over the Creator

as if pagan societies didn't or haven't done all manner of degenerate things

gimme a break Mage, internally your shit is so inconsistent it's laughable. A shaman is a priest, no one knows any more "naturally" how to connect with the divine in your fantasy pagan world, it's the same shit, we'd just use different terms for the same "subverted" humans to act out

as if snake oil salesmen are purely products of modern society; you clearly lack knowledge of humanity, gtfo with this crap
 

911

Peacock
Catholic
Gold Member
RE: Which group is responsible for the predicament that Western Civ

MrLemon said:
NoMoreTO said:
^^ Feminists can be controlled bro! All their freedom is what we give them.

Degenerate alpha males who misuse their gifts - as much as I didn't vote for this, Its starting to sink in.
- They are the ones who allowed the (((usual suspects))) in
- They didn't take their rightful place, they just slayed women and stacked cash, so our leaders are betas and gammas
- The same can be said for 'elites who aren't (them), these could be alphas but I think they are to blame for their greed.

When we place to much power into money, and we don't have a masculine society, and let women control so much, I am not sure an alpha will always rises to the top. Not all Alphas are women charmers as we think of in the dating sphere, they are primarily leaders of men. And the bishes just like that and follow along.

Young guys *always* think they can control lesbians/Feminists -- big talk about 'alphas" and "gammas" -- then a few years later, you see those same guys being led on a collar by some dyke.

Lesbians and feminists were barely a thing before the 1960s. Somehow women had been around for 2,000 years of western civilization without that feminist scourge, but suddenly in the 1960s it started taking over...

Their rise was programmed, and you refuse to acknowledge this simple fact and look at the cultural forces that spawned and pushed it.



Perhaps you could also appreciate the fact that although most of the agents of feminism and their funders were Jewish, NAJALT. This video is a good proof of this, you have righteous Jews (like movie producer Aaron Russo seen here) who vehemently reject that nefarious program, as do all of our MOT fellow Rooshers.

But you have to recognize that feminism was just a chapter of Tikkun Olam, the emanation of the Jewish revolutionary spirit, as are other subversive leftist anti-Christian anti-traditional causes like gay activism and racial strife. All these movement emerged as Jews started taking control of political and cultural levers in the post-war era. E. Michael Jones on the subject:



At the root of this cultural force you have a messianic, supremacist Sabbatean Frankist movement, which half of European jewry followed in the 17th-18th century, including tribal leaders like the Rothschilds. This movement covers both sides of the political spectrum, the cultural marxist left as well as the national zionist right.
 

questor70

 
Banned
It didn't just start in the 60s. Remember the suffragettes around the turn of the century? The flappers of the 1920s?

The industrial revolution created prosperity. Properity liberates women. Liberated women weaken men and male institutions.

It merely accelerated in the 60s because of the counter-culture movement and the pill.

Same deal with past civilizations that had an empire's peak ala Rome or the british empire. Wealth (and slave labor) was concentrated from conquered states and functioned similarly to fossil fuels and machinery does today.

Again, there will be this continued search for scapegoats but it's ultimately a macro result of "progress".

The easier life gets, the more humanity struggles to function because we evolved to deal with a hardscrabble life.

We want desperately to escape ahard life but when we do, we can't handle it.

Nobody wants to accept this portrait of the situation because it doesn't present some easy target to attack, but that's the reality of the situation. This entire poll is built on a false premise.

If you want to really fix the problem you'd need to genetically engineer these traits out of the human genome, otherwise it will require us collapsing back into a warlordism state to bring back a more patriarchal society ala Mad Max.
 

911

Peacock
Catholic
Gold Member
Mage said:
The correct answer is Christianity. Knights Templar and Jesuits were the first secret societies with a hidden agenda. Everyone else - the Masons, the (((usual suspects))), the socialists and others made their lodges based on their template.

Even before these organizations, Christianity destroyed the Pagan wisdom that showed how each individual can connect to the divine directly and installed a universal cult of priesthood. From this point on nearly all the people are dependent on "teachers" and "scriptures" to understand what is true and what is not and are incapable of beholding the truth on their own by uniting with God/nature. This was the first step needed to make the world a fertile ground for any further form of subversion including feminism, leftism, homosexuality, socialism, credit, drugs et cetera.

Today Christianity plays a role of controlled opposition.

What kind of twisted logic is this, lumping the Masons, Commies and zionists with Christianity?!? It is precisely those groups that have been conspiring for centuries to subvert and overthrow the Church. My ancestors had the foresight to crush the Templars, who were kabbalist homo heretics that were conspiring to subvert and overthrow the moral order.

Incidentally, you are also a kabbalist, right? Deception and projection are part of that trade, what adepts refer to as "Magick", the art of deception, done by mages, so your handle here is very a propos...
 

911

Peacock
Catholic
Gold Member
questor70 said:
It didn't just start in the 60s. Remember the suffragettes around the turn of the century? The flappers of the 1920s?

The industrial revolution created prosperity. Properity liberates women. Liberated women weaken men and male institutions.

It merely accelerated in the 60s because of the counter-culture movement and the pill.

Same deal with past civilizations that had an empire's peak ala Rome or the british empire. Wealth (and slave labor) was concentrated from conquered states and functioned similarly to fossil fuels and machinery does today.

Again, there will be this continued search for scapegoats but it's ultimately a macro result of "progress".

The easier life gets, the more humanity struggles to function because we evolved to deal with a hardscrabble life.

We want desperately to escape ahard life but when we do, we can't handle it.

Nobody wants to accept this portrait of the situation because it doesn't present some easy target to attack, but that's the reality of the situation. This entire poll is built on a false premise.

If you want to really fix the problem you'd need to genetically engineer these traits out of the human genome, otherwise it will require us collapsing back into a warlordism state to bring back a more patriarchal society ala Mad Max.


Wealth alone doesn't bring feminism.

The British empire and most of western Europe all had large, post-industrial wealthy classes, back when Europe completely dominated the world economy, with a substantial portion of society living in material comfort, but there was absolutely no feminism. Those were traditional Christian societies were for example divorce or out of wedlock births were very rare and frowned upon, and women didn't venture much outside of the domestic realm. That was also the case in the 1950s, after over a century of industrial development, where you had large middle classes that were nearly as affluent as they are today in terms of purchasing power.

The notion of feminism being a natural product of wealth is further dispelled by the fact that you have had very poor communist societies where the most extreme forms of feminism raged on. The current family law legal framework is essentially the same as the one set up by the (((Bolsheviks))) 100 years ago in the USSR in order to destroy the social and moral order. Here is an article from 1926 that described the situation there:

When the Bolsheviki came into power in 1917 they regarded the family, like every other 'bourgeois' institution, with fierce hatred, and set out with a will to destroy it. 'To clear the family out of the accumulated dust of the ages we had to give it a good shakeup, and we did,' declared Madame Smidovich, a leading (((Communist))) and active participant in the recent discussion. So one of the first decrees of the Soviet Government abolished the term 'illegitimate children.' This was done simply by equalizing the legal status of all children, whether born in wedlock or out of it, and now the Soviet Government boasts that Russia is the only country where there are no illegitimate children. The father of a child is forced to contribute to its support, usually paying the mother a third of his salary in the event of a separation, provided she has no other means of livelihood.

At the same time a law was passed which made divorce a matter of a few minutes, to be obtained at the request of either partner in a marriage. Chaos was the result.

...'Some men have twenty wives, living a week with one, a month with another,' asserted an indignant woman delegate during the sessions of the Tzik. 'They have children with all of them, and these children are thrown on the street for lack of support! (There are three hundred thousand bezprizorni or shelterless children in Russia to-day, who are literally turned out on the streets. They are one of the greatest social dangers of the present time, because they are developing into professional criminals. More than half of them are drug addicts and sex perverts. It is claimed by many Communists that the break-up of the family is responsible for a large percentage of these children.)

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1926/07/the-russian-effort-to-abolish-marriage/306295/



I think you've basically internalized all the socially engineered degeneracy as something that is a natural part of economic development, the fish in water phenomenon. Social engineering and cultural conditioning are what brought feminism to the fore.

The 1920s and the first wave of feminism were the first attempt, but they did not have a major impact in altering society. It wasn't until the takeover of academia by the Frankfurt School in combination with the active pushing of the sexual revolution encapsulated in the 1960s engineered "counter-culture" that feminism finally took hold.
 

MrLemon

 
Banned
911 said:
Lesbians and feminists were barely a thing before the 1960s. Somehow women had been around for 2,000 years of western civilization without that feminist scourge, but suddenly in the 1960s it started taking over...

No. Feminists and lesbians have been around as long as there have been women. They were just called something else.

In every society, they are the 10% or whatever of the population of women who, because of anger issues of ugliness, couldn't create or maintain a relationship with a man, or would be sluts, and then would become angry and vengeful and try to destroy the village/town/tribe whatever by luring young girls down their path. The married women would make their husbands drive these feminst/lesbians out of town, so they wouldn't screw up the minds of their daughters.

Feminism became a thing in 1960 because, for the first time in human history, the traditional need for family and marriage was dropped. The western world had so much technology and so much food that women lost their need to ensure a man could provide for them. Women therefore started slacking off and allowing the 10% bad women, feminists and lesbians, to start running wild. Yes most lesbians and feminists are intellectuals, communiists, and jews, but that's correlation, not causation.
 

Mage

 
Banned
Kid Twist said:
Mage said:
The correct answer is Christianity. Knights Templar and Jesuits were the first secret societies with a hidden agenda. Everyone else - the Masons, the (((usual suspects))), the socialists and others made their lodges based on their template.

Even before these organizations, Christianity destroyed the Pagan wisdom that showed how each individual can connect to the divine directly and installed a universal cult of priesthood. From this point on nearly all the people are dependent on "teachers" and "scriptures" to understand what is true and what is not and are incapable of beholding the truth on their own by uniting with God/nature. This was the first step needed to make the world a fertile ground for any further form of subversion including feminism, leftism, homosexuality, socialism, credit, drugs et cetera.

Today Christianity plays a role of controlled opposition.

Not this again. The pagan guy prefers the created over the Creator

as if pagan societies didn't or haven't done all manner of degenerate things

gimme a break Mage, internally your shit is so inconsistent it's laughable. A shaman is a priest, no one knows any more "naturally" how to connect with the divine in your fantasy pagan world, it's the same shit, we'd just use different terms for the same "subverted" humans to act out

as if snake oil salesmen are purely products of modern society; you clearly lack knowledge of humanity, gtfo with this crap

Only ad hominems, no arguments in your post.

How much do you know about how shamans operate? I bet your perception of them is Christian based. You just have to assume they are analogous to that faith that you know.

There are always people in all societies and in all times more interested in spiritual then others these would become shamans or priests, depending on society. The difference is that shamans are not a separate excluded caste, like Christian priests. To became a shaman you do not have to prove your loyalty to authority and you do not require years of brainwashing and dubious scripture. To became a shaman you must have access to astral world or higher and be able to practically demonstrate results. You do not have to belong to a shaman guild or whatever, anyone who reaches a certain level of attainment can do it.

Paganism may appear inconsistent because it is a broad umbrella term and there is no dogma. We have lost a lot of knowledge and and that knowledge stands above human reason, much can only be learned trough trial and error and is often counter-intuitive. Also paganism is not a revelation theology so there is no requirement for any divine power to explain it all to us.

Christianity is still inconstant even after two millennia of dogma and despite it relaying on human reason and believing theology can be explained by speculation. It is revelation theology meaning God could easily explain all the unclear questions that Christians argue internally for millennial like what happens to aborted babies or faith vs works argument and many others. Instead Christian God is silent and not does not deliver any proper revelation, all Christian theology is invented by Paul and other speculators and it still has many inconsistencies and plot holes.
 
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