Why do you not use Steroids?

Pendleton

Kingfisher
Acne, hair loss, expense, organ damage, clogged arteries, destruction of natural test production, legal issues. I am not really sure what the appeal is unless you are an athlete, actor, model or otherwise getting paid based on your physique. Barring extreme vanity or insecurity, the cost-benefit analysis just doesn't justify it. If you are talking about 40+ year old guys taking TRT levels of test, that is a different issue.
 

Cortés

Woodpecker
Gold Member
Did anyone ever try (monthly, 6 week) cycles of just HGH? I think I saw the rejuvenation protocols as 2 IU / day. A lot of people, including bodybuilding physicians, say 4-8 can get you muscle hypertrophy at those higher levels. But I imagine you start getting blood sugar or insulin effects that may be problematic at those levels. Also, for those of us in North America, it's quite expensive. I read that in Mexico it is 1/3 the cost, however. I probably wouldn't touch these things for another decade (into my 50s) but I was wondering if anyone had done small cycles and can report on the results.

When I was working construction my boss had serious Ponce de Leon syndrome, looking for the fountain of youth. He asked me to source some test and HGH. He told me his recovery every morning was awesome. He was something like 58 years old, pouring and screeding concrete 10 hours per day 6 days a week months on end. He said that he felt like a kid again, he would wear himself out by the end of the day, and then the next morning he would feel even stronger. If I remember right, he was doing 150mg test per week and 2iu of gh. He was in good shape for his age before the hormones, but he had twice the energy and strength once he got on. I don't really remember if he started to look younger or anything, he got more cut thru the year but he never mentioned anything about looking younger, only feeling younger. I didnt work with him long enough to know whether or not he saw those effects longer term
 

get2choppaaa

Woodpecker
Acne, hair loss, expense, organ damage, clogged arteries, destruction of natural test production, legal issues. I am not really sure what the appeal is unless you are an athlete, actor, model or otherwise getting paid based on your physique. Barring extreme vanity or insecurity, the cost-benefit analysis just doesn't justify it. If you are talking about 40+ year old guys taking TRT levels of test, that is a different issue.

Yeah I agree here, this thread is turning into somewhat of a HRT discussion, which is a different ball park than AAS abuse. TRT= T levels near/around 1000 mg total or less. Above that and you are getting into Supraphysiologic levels and abuse. In my youth I at age 18 I did 16 weeks of week of Test and deca, some stanozolol at the end. It worked... but my hair line started thinning there. Went cold turkey and the next 2 months were pretty shitty. Had 2 kids at age 25 and 27, got bloods checked at 28 and was in the 670's total (this is good considering the night before I got hammered) and still in range. So the issue with endogenous androgens is chronicity of use and less dosage based. After I got out of the military I went to a clinic and got on "TRT".

The main issue I would mention for AAS is that Exogenous Androgens raise your RBC/Hematocrit. High Hematocrit/thicker blood raises blood pressure. High blood pressure results in Kidney damage, and a litany of co-morbidity factors as a result.

Second major issue is the fertility. It can mess with your ITT (inter-testicular Testosterone) which you need to take HCG for. Not all people have this issue, but many do, so you take HCG prophylacticly.

If you are going to go over TRT doses you need a doctor and quarterly or at least semi-annually bloodwork, and you'll likely need to do monthly or bi monthly blood donations.

I've got one of the leading docs in the field, and regularly get blood work, give blood every 60 days or so, and also take HCG for fertility. Doing 200mg a week is basically running a low dose cycle all year round, based off of my bloodwork. But technically this is considered TRT.

We arent even talking about additional use of orals such as stanozolol/oxandrolone/dianabol ect...

Personally, I am pro-steroids for informed users. IF you want to take 1000mg a week, go ahead, but dont be surprised if your blood work is messed up, your ldl/hdl is jacked up/ you have high bp, and you're infertile, and bald (though this doesnt happen to everyone).

That all being said, once you go on, you'll never want to come off. Physically and emotionally its not pleasant. For me, its no different than taking a multi-vitamin, its just part of the routine.

Again, this is different than blasting and cruising. Personally having done both abusing and not abusing, I would take the slow and steady approach vs the frontload of drugs upfront.
 
MW, are you on enanthate, undecanoate, cypionate? Just curious.

Anyone with a comment on the half year to yearly [side] effects of HGH?

Nope. Just regular testosterone, plus anastrazole to keep estrogen levels in the right range. Never taken an anabolic and have no plans to, though I did take sermorelin (growth hormone analogue) a couple years ago and ended up the fattest I’ve ever been. Don’t know how much of that was the sermo and how much was my bad diet, but I’m never taking anything like that again and I’m happy with my current regimen. I also train 6 days per week and count every calorie, because I learned from the past that not tracking nutrition is one of the biggest mistakes a guy can make in terms of his fitness.
 

Blade Runner

Kingfisher
That all being said, once you go on, you'll never want to come off. Physically and emotionally its not pleasant. For me, its no different than taking a multi-vitamin, its just part of the routine.

Thanks chops

Forgive me if I'm being annoying, I just wondered if HGH use (if you have the loot) is worth it in 2-4 iu doses, mornings, for youthful exuberance as you age. :cool:
 

get2choppaaa

Woodpecker
Nope. Just regular testosterone, plus anastrazole to keep estrogen levels in the right range. Never taken an anabolic and have no plans to, though I did take sermorelin (growth hormone analogue) a couple years ago and ended up the fattest I’ve ever been. Don’t know how much of that was the sermo and how much was my bad diet, but I’m never taking anything like that again and I’m happy with my current regimen. I also train 6 days per week and count every calorie, because I learned from the past that not tracking nutrition is one of the biggest mistakes a guy can make in terms of his fitness.
So by "regular Testosterone" MW means Cypionate I am assuming. Difference between it and Enanthate is roughly 1-2 days different in half life. Cypionate is the most commonly prescribed Testosterone Ester.
 

get2choppaaa

Woodpecker
Thanks chops

Forgive me if I'm being annoying, I just wondered if HGH use (if you have the loot) is worth it in 2-4 iu doses, mornings, for youthful exuberance as you age. :cool:
Zero experience here with GH. I think certain people respond differently, but frankly, the 1000's you'll spend on GH over a couple years would better be spent on T regime through a doctor. You're gonna have to give yourself shots either way, and I am willing to bet that once you get on one exogenous substance, it will gateway into a second. I think the lipolytic effect is the major reason to use GH for bodybuilders, less than the anabolic effect.

If you are wanting a person to check out on semi-safe anabolic, look up Justin Harris and his company "Muscle Mentor" and get a month subscription to his website. You'll get all the info you need there. He is a renowned prep coach, solid bodybuilder himself, and brilliantly smart with degrees in physics (as well as being a family man and not a human turd, which is super common in bodybuilding).

 
Been considering TRT for a while. My levels are normal, 600 total and 7(3-23) free. Doing most things right, feeling ok but not great, could probably feel better at 900 and a lot higher free. I can buy online and do a like 250iu of HCG and 50mg of enanthate twice a week which will probably push me above 1000 and free T should like triple. Guess the reason I don’t is that I have some irrational negative beliefs about being a steroid user, that people might judge me, that it might be messy while traveling and slight risk of infertility.

Pin it or bin it?
 

get2choppaaa

Woodpecker
Been considering TRT for a while. My levels are normal, 600 total and 7(3-23) free. Doing most things right, feeling ok but not great, could probably feel better at 900 and a lot higher free. I can buy online and do a like 250iu of HCG and 50mg of enanthate twice a week which will probably push me above 1000 and free T should like triple. Guess the reason I don’t is that I have some irrational negative beliefs about being a steroid user, that people might judge me, that it might be messy while traveling and slight risk of infertility.

Pin it or bin it?

How old are you? Doesnt sound like you have a medical "need" for exogenous T... but I've been in that boat too and at 30 I got on TRT through a clinic before going to a good doc. I found taking T as a way better drug to take than prozac/sleep meds ect... for depression/insomnia ect... I was having. Regarding the judgement, who cares? You certainly won't once you go on. Travel With T is fairly easy, and you can look into that.

Supposing you decided to go through the process of getting on T (not encouraging or discouraging) consider the following:

Most doctors are going to have a hard time prescribing you T if your levels are in 600s so you'll be going clinic for the initial prescription. If you want to get a face to face doctor to prescribe: After about 3-4 months on, you should go off for 3 weeks, get a doctor to do all your blood work, and you'll be in the 150-200's total (which will absolutely show a medical justification) I would suggest you also look up doctors who are pro-andrology. They are out there, and you can find them on other websites. The biggest problem with clinics is that they don't typically do the frequent enough bloodwork that should be done for health. So if you can afford it and want to go the clinic route, just do your own bloodwork every 4-6 months and make a point to learn what things need to be evaluated.

You need to do 1500 IU of HCG a week if you actually want to maintain fertility. Reference Dr. Lipshultz (literally wrote the book on male fertility and HCG use)

If you haven't considered it already, I would strongly advise you to understand that you'll be on T for the rest of your life, so its not something to jump into if you're not 100% committed. You are fundamentally changing your body chemistry by replacing a natural production and supplementing with outside source. Chronicity of use will shut down your HTPA, so its not a road to go down w/out full awareness of the consequences.
 
I‘m close to 40.

You are right, one option is always to do one TRT cycle by oneself for 8 weeks, then go to doctor with a clinically low testosterone and get a prescription.

Regarding HCG dosage:
Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group.

So 3.5x125IU/week HCG took them from -94% to -25%. Imo no need to go to +26% and risk leydig cells or high e2.

Freezing sperm, doing TRT with a low dose of HCG and if needed do a short cycleof high dose HCG when trying to conceive seems better. Your thoughts?

Also is it so hard to come off TRT+HCG if needed? Stop T and up HCG to 1500/week for two weeks and then slowly decrease HCG?
 

Blitz

Sparrow
Aside from the potential side effects, I've reached close to my skeletal limits of strength naturally. I'm tall and broad shouldered but with narrow wrists and apparently missing ligaments in my knees. I get to 235 on bench, 60 on dumb bell curls or 350 on squats/ deads, and I can feel the stress building not so much in my joints but like mid forearm or shin area. I could probably push another 20% gains, but for what? So then, take steroids for what?

Without having read through the thread, aside from TRT, what is the 'for what'?
 

get2choppaaa

Woodpecker
I‘m close to 40.

You are right, one option is always to do one TRT cycle by oneself for 8 weeks, then go to doctor with a clinically low testosterone and get a prescription.

Regarding HCG dosage:
Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group.

So 3.5x125IU/week HCG took them from -94% to -25%. Imo no need to go to +26% and risk leydig cells or high e2.

Freezing sperm, doing TRT with a low dose of HCG and if needed do a short cycleof high dose HCG when trying to conceive seems better. Your thoughts?

Also is it so hard to come off TRT+HCG if needed? Stop T and up HCG to 1500/week for two weeks and then slowly decrease HCG?
I am a doctor. But my doctor is THE GUY for Male Fertility and HCG. When I told him I was originally on 1000 iu's a week, he said "that doesnt work, 1500 is the dose for maintenance" So I am going to go with the guy who's treated thousands of men for this. You can find his studies/resources all over the internet. You found one study, but not necessarily the preponderance of data to support this. Clinicians are also many times ahead of proven study data. So I would take this one study with a few grains of salt here. If you want more studies look up Baylor College of Medicine Dr Larry Lipshultz and his multitude of studies on the dose.
 
I am a doctor. But my doctor is THE GUY for Male Fertility and HCG. When I told him I was originally on 1000 iu's a week, he said "that doesnt work, 1500 is the dose for maintenance" So I am going to go with the guy who's treated thousands of men for this. You can find his studies/resources all over the internet. You found one study, but not necessarily the preponderance of data to support this. Clinicians are also many times ahead of proven study data. So I would take this one study with a few grains of salt here. If you want more studies look up Baylor College of Medicine Dr Larry Lipshultz and his multitude of studies on the dose.
Awesome, thanks!
 

Stadtaffe

Sparrow
Gold Member
There is a very broad idea of an ideal physique or one that elicits the most attraction from females on this forum. Some guys might think the 150lb swimmer bod is the ideal physique whereas other members such as myself may strive for a physique somewhere between the lines of a men's physique and classic physique competitor.

The point is that there is no point bickering over the choice of whether or not to use steroids unless there is a sort of common ideal among those involved in the discussion.

The dude working towards his swimmer bod is not going to understand why the guy working towards his ifbb class physique is on roids, same goes for vice versa.

When I was in my late teens, I started doing weight training and have never really stopped it, am now a bit over 40. At the time, one of my gym buddies, a person you would least expect, got hold of some "juice" and did a few cycles. He was well into the muscle mags. I actually bought one myself the other day, is inspiring. But as per this quote, in high school I just did not really feel inspired to "get massive" but now am seeing perhaps the error of my ways in being more a poor mans version of he swimmers body my whole life. Extreme cardio fitness and reasonable strength but not massive. Muscular but not bulky and not extremely cut. So am now making gains in the gym and cutting, 3 or 4 days per week instead of 1 and someone said, why don't you microdose steroids?

Yes, why not, my buddy did back in the day and nothing bad seemed to come of it. No, it's truly messing with your endocrine system, injecting a hormone like that. I could never get really serious about the supplements either. Have experimented with L-carnitine to help cutting and creating for gains but these powders only make sense when you are going months in a row 3+ days per week for weight training. The timing, dosing and cycling of supplements like creatine or hormones like steroids around your weights routine is quite detailed, takes some seriousness and discipline. I think you need to "earn" the right to take steroids by first having the largest natural physique you can through weight training and diet and only then if that is not enough. I would surely imagine that all the guys in the muscle mags are a bit like that, constantly in the gym, almost living in a gym before they start messing around with syringes.

Maybe there are some lazy characters who just start shooting the juice like people in America love their prescription drugs, antidepressants, ritalin or whatever. I probably don't have the personality or inclination to do it at all, but if at all, it would only be after significant natural gains.
 
To many variables. If you look at TRT groups a lot of guys have tons of problems: insomnia, Ed, hair loss. No one stops at test. You will soon find yourself taking Cialis, finasteride, dhea, progesterone. Debating injection frequency and dosage. Every drug has a side effect no free lunch. Natural life is much simpler
 
To many variables. If you look at TRT groups a lot of guys have tons of problems: insomnia, Ed, hair loss. No one stops at test. You will soon find yourself taking Cialis, finasteride, dhea, progesterone. Debating injection frequency and dosage. Every drug has a side effect no free lunch. Natural life is much simpler
But were they problematic before TRT or only after? And hairloss and ED is not limited to TRT guys. And do they follow a good protocol or just bro science or even worse using a bad doctor putting them on 1000mg Nebido once every 14 weeks?

If I did 62.5mg Enanthate twice a week it’s a lot different from a bro doing 200mg of sustanon every week as TRT wrt pushing the body out of ”natural” ranges. And I am pretty sure I would stay away from Tren even if I end up getting full on dysmorphia. .

No free lunch, but there are optimums and diminishing returns and by not being stupid you can often get a lot of bang for your buck.

(I am still natty but being open minded about starting it at some point in the future)
 
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