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<blockquote data-quote="ICXC" data-source="post: 1337628" data-attributes="member: 18463"><p>I should clarify and be a bit charitable towards my sisters in Christ here. By 0 standards I mean her natural standards; i.e. that being 'in nature', in a state of sin and being outside of God's grace. Not everything natural is 'good'. Though God made all thing's and all things are good, it is the inner sin within humans which is where evil comes from. Men and women 'in nature' is a complicated topic, but I would simply say that 'in nature' (i.e. without society and civilization) women have no standards (it seems) while in a state of sin. One could say the exact same for men, the only difference appears to be women prefer guidance and being directed, all the more in nature. And so her standards appear nonexistent in nature. (This is ironic because it seems the opposite in many ways, because she is nothing without support or to support someone she demands everything in exchange; i.e. picture a woman alone in the woods or trapped on a desert island). Point being to demand a list is basically her playing out her subconscious existential crisis of sorts. In other words her 'list' is literally anything and everything, because women are so deeply tied to self they need others to bring them out of themselves. The worst 'evil' for a woman would be isolation, she thinks if she doesn't have 'everything' then she has 'nothing'.</p><p></p><p>The deterrent for her is society and divine law. Because women subsume ideologies she will fight to the death for an ideology, not to say men won't but normally a man needs convinced first. Again it's a complicated topic, because were talking about a series of different states of being; in sin, in grace, in nature, in society etc. I don't have the answers, simply seems women are far more mailable while in sin sadly and they naturally subsume ideologies easier whereas men appear to be far more rebellious outwardly and aggressive in sin and go against others more easily. So, again, it's complicated, not something you can just write a paragraph about and explain away, generally these things can result in pretty huge errors and I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but yeah normally 'lists' and society expectations are just a form of rationalization to oneself because you lack true identity. As do we all, who can say they have true identity and is in a perfect state of grace?</p><p></p><p>If ALL men and women were in perfect states of grace could you still have procreation and sex? Theologically that's a difficult question to answer, I think the Lord Christ say's we are like angels when in Heaven and so sex is not really a prerogative there, but as far as our human nature goes sex and sin are two sides of the same coin. I'm not sure the theological answer. Could you be in a state of grace and have sex? Maybe. I'm pretty sure John Paul II in Theology of Body makes the claim that any misattributed desire during sex is in fact sinful, so I'm not 100% sure what the answer is.</p><p></p><p>My question is simply could you be in a state of grace while having sex? I think it seems possible, but is highly unlikely. Ultimately if man and women were their true selves and all men and women were in a state of grace procreation would not exist and the human race would in effect die off; i.e. if all men and women truly acknowledged God and all decided to not procreate, THAT'S when it would seem Christ would return or when God would actually be like, "Ok, now I'm listening" - THAT'S when the world would truly end. Is when all men and women finally decide to love instead of desiring procreation, and we no longer procreate and the last of us die. Why? Because men and women would be like nuns and monks, and they would no longer desire their human pseudo-immortality, but the immortality of eternal life found in the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ and being tied to Him, not to ourselves. Then again, God made for man and woman to be together, so that might be an abomination of God's design, procreation seems intrinsic and ordered, but the monk and nun and the celibate and the virgin is definitely more worthy and of more honor, and so it would appear if all peoples decided to do this, than in fact that ends life as we know it. Is that God's will though, no way of telling, but seems possible.</p><p></p><p>The true utopia I think would simply be families oriented towards Christ. While the celibate are of more dignity and merit greater glory it would seem that disbanding humanity would undo the promise God made ot Abraham, for his descendants to be like the stars.</p><p></p><p>Genesis 22:17</p><p>"I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies..."</p><p></p><p>Obviously I drifted way off topic and into theology, but seems relevant. In conclusion we need some structure or system in place for marriages, it doesn't have to be 'arranged marriages', but just marriage in general. The Catholic Church already has rules obviously to get married, but the entire process of courtship has been done away with and needs some real consideration and some real follow through because as explained, if there's no funnel to marriage then there's only a funnel to depravity and death.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ICXC, post: 1337628, member: 18463"] I should clarify and be a bit charitable towards my sisters in Christ here. By 0 standards I mean her natural standards; i.e. that being 'in nature', in a state of sin and being outside of God's grace. Not everything natural is 'good'. Though God made all thing's and all things are good, it is the inner sin within humans which is where evil comes from. Men and women 'in nature' is a complicated topic, but I would simply say that 'in nature' (i.e. without society and civilization) women have no standards (it seems) while in a state of sin. One could say the exact same for men, the only difference appears to be women prefer guidance and being directed, all the more in nature. And so her standards appear nonexistent in nature. (This is ironic because it seems the opposite in many ways, because she is nothing without support or to support someone she demands everything in exchange; i.e. picture a woman alone in the woods or trapped on a desert island). Point being to demand a list is basically her playing out her subconscious existential crisis of sorts. In other words her 'list' is literally anything and everything, because women are so deeply tied to self they need others to bring them out of themselves. The worst 'evil' for a woman would be isolation, she thinks if she doesn't have 'everything' then she has 'nothing'. The deterrent for her is society and divine law. Because women subsume ideologies she will fight to the death for an ideology, not to say men won't but normally a man needs convinced first. Again it's a complicated topic, because were talking about a series of different states of being; in sin, in grace, in nature, in society etc. I don't have the answers, simply seems women are far more mailable while in sin sadly and they naturally subsume ideologies easier whereas men appear to be far more rebellious outwardly and aggressive in sin and go against others more easily. So, again, it's complicated, not something you can just write a paragraph about and explain away, generally these things can result in pretty huge errors and I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but yeah normally 'lists' and society expectations are just a form of rationalization to oneself because you lack true identity. As do we all, who can say they have true identity and is in a perfect state of grace? If ALL men and women were in perfect states of grace could you still have procreation and sex? Theologically that's a difficult question to answer, I think the Lord Christ say's we are like angels when in Heaven and so sex is not really a prerogative there, but as far as our human nature goes sex and sin are two sides of the same coin. I'm not sure the theological answer. Could you be in a state of grace and have sex? Maybe. I'm pretty sure John Paul II in Theology of Body makes the claim that any misattributed desire during sex is in fact sinful, so I'm not 100% sure what the answer is. My question is simply could you be in a state of grace while having sex? I think it seems possible, but is highly unlikely. Ultimately if man and women were their true selves and all men and women were in a state of grace procreation would not exist and the human race would in effect die off; i.e. if all men and women truly acknowledged God and all decided to not procreate, THAT'S when it would seem Christ would return or when God would actually be like, "Ok, now I'm listening" - THAT'S when the world would truly end. Is when all men and women finally decide to love instead of desiring procreation, and we no longer procreate and the last of us die. Why? Because men and women would be like nuns and monks, and they would no longer desire their human pseudo-immortality, but the immortality of eternal life found in the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ and being tied to Him, not to ourselves. Then again, God made for man and woman to be together, so that might be an abomination of God's design, procreation seems intrinsic and ordered, but the monk and nun and the celibate and the virgin is definitely more worthy and of more honor, and so it would appear if all peoples decided to do this, than in fact that ends life as we know it. Is that God's will though, no way of telling, but seems possible. The true utopia I think would simply be families oriented towards Christ. While the celibate are of more dignity and merit greater glory it would seem that disbanding humanity would undo the promise God made ot Abraham, for his descendants to be like the stars. Genesis 22:17 "I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies..." Obviously I drifted way off topic and into theology, but seems relevant. In conclusion we need some structure or system in place for marriages, it doesn't have to be 'arranged marriages', but just marriage in general. The Catholic Church already has rules obviously to get married, but the entire process of courtship has been done away with and needs some real consideration and some real follow through because as explained, if there's no funnel to marriage then there's only a funnel to depravity and death. [/QUOTE]
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